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	<title>Toronto &#8211; medhum.org</title>
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	<item>
		<title>The Happiest Couple</title>
		<link>https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/the-happiest-couple/</link>
					<comments>https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/the-happiest-couple/#respond</comments>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Hsu]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2025 12:38:11 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Narrative]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[A Chinese City Doctor’s Notebook]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[adaptation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[aging]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[caregiving]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[chinese]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[community]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[compassion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[cultural revolution]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[elderly]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Family]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[growth]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[healing]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[immigration]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[independence]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[language barrier]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[laughter]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[resilience]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[seniors]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[storytelling]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Toronto]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[trauma]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://medhum.org/?p=11248</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A moving portrait of resilience, aging, and love through the remarkable immigrant journey of the happiest couple this doctor has met.]]></description>
										<content:encoded><![CDATA[
<h4 class="wp-block-heading">A Chinese City Doctor’s Notebook–Chapter Four</h4>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">After eighteen years of clinical practice, I think I’ve looked after somewhere between four and five thousand patients in total. Some patients I meet only a handful of times. Others I know like extended family. There are all types of patients: pleasant ones, well-behaved ones, as well as difficult ones that try my patience and of course, some that I’d rather forget.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Of course, most of my patients are Chinese immigrants and immigrating is a difficult business, not something to be undertaken by the faint of heart. New home. Often a new language. Usually a whole new culture. The immigrant experience means uprooting a person or a family from all that they are comfortable with and placing them in a strange and unfamiliar setting.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">If being an immigrant is hard, then being an immigrant as a senior citizen is even harder. Try learning English for the first time when you’re in your sixties and seventies. Try going to the bank or dealing with a leaky faucet when you are a stranger in a foreign land. And yet, I’ve seen countless examples over the years of Chinese seniors starting over in Canada somewhere in their sixth or seventh decades. I often wonder. What is it that makes them want to start over yet again in their life? Is it simply that they want to be closer to their children and grandchildren who’ve come to Canada? Is there nobody left back in their home country? Do they really know what they are in for? Can anyone really be prepared for it?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In my own family, I’ve seen this process of elderly immigrants play out firsthand. Both of my grandmothers spent portions of their later years living with my parents in Toronto, with varying degrees of success. Through them, I witnessed just how difficult it could be to be an elderly Chinese immigrant in Toronto, which is probably, with its enormous Chinese population, already one of the most Chinese-friendly cities in the world outside of Asia.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In Taipei, my grandmothers could walk outside in the mornings and bring back fresh produce and noodles from the market down the street in their respective neighborhoods. Never mind that the produce in the Food City and Miracle Food Mart of my childhood was nowhere near as a fresh or tasty as the food culled on the subtropical island of Taiwan: in Toronto, our family lived in the suburbs of Scarborough, and later North York, so my grandmothers could only visit a store if my father was free on the weekends to drive them.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image alignright size-large is-resized"><img fetchpriority="high" decoding="async" width="1024" height="768" src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/43_Chinatown_Toronto-1024x768.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-14354" style="width:350px" srcset="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/43_Chinatown_Toronto-1024x768.jpg 1024w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/43_Chinatown_Toronto-300x225.jpg 300w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/43_Chinatown_Toronto-768x576.jpg 768w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/43_Chinatown_Toronto-1536x1152.jpg 1536w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/43_Chinatown_Toronto-1320x990.jpg 1320w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/43_Chinatown_Toronto.jpg 1920w" sizes="(max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Chinatown, Toronto</figcaption></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Of course, my grandmothers couldn’t read or speak much English. In the era before cellular phones and Google maps, my parents taught them to navigate the Toronto subway system by memorizing the pattern of the coloured tiles at the individual subway stations, back when the city made a point of individualizing each station’s appearance. Dundas Station meant yellow coloured tiles. This was important because this way my grandmother knew which spot to get off if she wanted to find Chinatown.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">My maternal grandmother abhorred Canada. Her complaints were plentiful: the produce didn’t taste fresh, the winter weather was too cold, it was too difficult to go places without a car and the language barrier was insurmountable. Ultimately, nothing about life here was as easy or as convenient for her as life in Taipei. At some point, she actually learned enough English to pass her Canadian citizenship exam. But years later, she defiantly informed me that she had returned all that knowledge back to her teachers. She had forgotten it all.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">My paternal grandmother didn’t voice her complaints about Canada as much. Whether it was because she was more content, or simply because she tended to keep more to herself, I’m not sure what she ultimately thought about being a Chinese immigrant. But watching from afar as she spent the long months from spring to fall in our house (she always returned to Taiwan before it got too cold), living with my mom while my father was mostly out of the house, I couldn’t help but surmise that things weren’t really that easy. She didn’t learn much English, and save for her morning walk around the neighbourhood, she rarely ventured outside the house, preferring instead to spend most of her days watching satellite television from Taiwan. Living with grandchildren you don’t know very well, a son who is usually at work, and making nice with your daughter-in-law on a regular basis; this was another form of the Chinese Canadian immigrant experience.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">This phenomenon, that of the frustrated elderly immigrant, is one that I’ve seen countless times in my medical practice. Flummoxed by a language they don’t understand, struggling to live under the roof of a son or daughter-in-law that they aren’t completely in sync with, and often tasked with the thankless job of babysitting little grandchildren for no pay, the immigrant elderly experience is fraught with trials and tribulations. And that is before real crises hit the family: a car accident, or a health situation, or worse. Crises are difficult enough when you are surrounded by your social safety net of familiar family and friends. But now, imagine being in an unfamiliar country when life unloads a crisis as it is wont to do. The examples are endless, but the end result is the same. Frustration, resentment, and ultimately regret. Why did we ever bother to come here?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Over the years, I’ve seen versions of it all. Disinterested adult children chauffeuring their elderly parents to doctor appointments, and those children then falling asleep in the chairs while their parents are describing their symptoms next to them. Other times, I’ve seen seniors get chastised verbally by their children when they try to ask me one question too many. I’ve treated elderly patients who got into physical altercations with their son-in-laws. And it goes both ways too: I’ve seen adult children come to me to request Prozac knowing that their mother-in-law will be arriving a month from now.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">When I sat down to write this piece about elderly immigrants, I thought about which of my patients I really wanted to know more about. One couple, the Chens, immediately leapt into my mind. I’ve changed their names here to protect their privacy.&nbsp;</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image alignright size-full is-resized"><img decoding="async" width="640" height="960" src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/tran-nhu-tuan-dC0lg-f1W6U-unsplash.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-11292" style="width:320px" srcset="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/tran-nhu-tuan-dC0lg-f1W6U-unsplash.jpg 640w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/tran-nhu-tuan-dC0lg-f1W6U-unsplash-200x300.jpg 200w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/tran-nhu-tuan-dC0lg-f1W6U-unsplash-600x900.jpg 600w" sizes="(max-width: 640px) 100vw, 640px" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Photo of an elderly Asian couple <br>by &nbsp;<a href="https://unsplash.com/@kooldark?utm_content=creditCopyText&amp;utm_medium=referral&amp;utm_source=unsplash">TRAN NHU TUAN</a></figcaption></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">On the surface, there’s nothing special about them. They’re an elderly Chinese couple, living in Toronto while their children live elsewhere. They aren’t particularly well off, and they spend their retirement doing typical Chinese immigrant senior citizen things: attending doctor visits, taking classes at the community centre, and so forth.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But dig past the surface, and they are unique. They’ve been married for over sixty years, and they are quite possibly the happiest, most resilient seniors I know. When things happen to them that would certainly derail others, they laugh about it, avoid blaming others and then move on. I’ve seen it happen in my office many times.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">A few years back, Mr. Chen was struck by a car while crossing the street as a pedestrian, injuring his shoulder. For many patients, this would be a cue for initiating legal proceedings and a demand for compensation, as well as an endless stream of doctor visits and requests for pain medications. How did Mr. Chen handle it? He laughed it off, dismissed my question about “who was at fault” in the accident and recovered within a few months while doing some exercises with a physiotherapist.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Not too long after that, Mrs. Chen was found to have a slowly growing brain tumour. For many patients, this would be cause for anxiety, angst and even hysteria. But for Mrs. Chen, it was just another fact of life. She decided that in her mid-eighties, she didn’t need to risk surgery, and she’d continue to live day by day, even though the neurosurgeons thought that a more aggressive approach might improve her mortality and her quality of life, especially if her vision were to decline further. But they didn’t take into account that she was already fine with her quality of life and didn’t see the need to potentially upend things with surgical complications. Now, three years later, she’s remained the same, happy, laughing patient, who always makes a point to end our visits with a “good bye“ or ”thank you very much,” spoken in English that she learned in her English as a Second Language class.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Actually, I’ll correct what I said earlier. The Chens aren’t just the happiest seniors I know. They are quite possibly the happiest, most well-balanced people I know. What is the secret sauce of their happiness? That’s what I set out to find out. And that’s what I explained to them when I brought them into my office to be interviewed a few weeks ago.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>This is their story.</strong></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The first thing to point out is that neither Mr. nor Mrs. Chen’s life was easy. If we suspected that part of the magic sauce of resilience is the ability to live a peacefully blissful existence in a Garden of Eden type environment, the Chens’ lives, dating back to their childhood, shows that this is not the case.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Mr. Chen was born in a small town in the province of Shanxi, in Northern China in 1937. At that time, China was at war, trying to stave off Japanese occupation, and so he grew up in an environment where war and violence were everywhere. In fact, the Japanese began bombing his town of Qixian three days before he was born. As a child, he watched as soldiers of all the different warring sides-the Communist People’s Liberation Army, the Nationalist Kuomintang, and the Japanese—took turns filing through the town’s lone major road. His father was a businessman who later made a name for himself selling tea and often had to travel. Mr. Chen remembered that for some years, he would see his father only once a year. Fortunately, their family avoided major mishaps during the war years, but he remembers seeing body bags piled up by the side of the road. When World War II ended and the occupation by Japan ended, he recalled seeing people dancing in the streets.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Meanwhile, Mrs. Chen was born in 1938 in Tianjin in Northern China, one out of four children. Her father was a businessman, and her mother was a housewife. During the war years, her family moved regularly, living at different times in Sichuan, then Nanjing, and finally in Shanghai.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">She had some recollection of planes flying overhead while she lived in Shanghai, and that her mother didn’t want her to attend school for fear of violence. But for the most part though, she didn’t see much of the violence of war firsthand.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Of course, the cycle of war in China didn’t end when the Japanese occupation ended. After the Japanese departed, the Chinese Civil War between the communists and the Kuomintang promptly resumed and only ended with the Communist Party victorious in 1949.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">By liberation day of that year, Mr. Chen’s father had moved the family to Beijing. He was now a sixth grade student and heard the horns and sirens announcing the liberation of China.&nbsp;</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image alignright size-large is-resized"><img decoding="async" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/1967-04_%E5%B1%B1%E8%A5%BF%E9%9D%A9%E5%91%BD%E9%80%A0%E5%8F%8D%E6%B4%BE%E5%A4%A7%E8%81%94%E5%90%88%E5%A4%BA%E6%9D%83%E8%AA%93%E5%B8%88%E5%A4%A7%E4%BC%9A.jpg/960px-1967-04_%E5%B1%B1%E8%A5%BF%E9%9D%A9%E5%91%BD%E9%80%A0%E5%8F%8D%E6%B4%BE%E5%A4%A7%E8%81%94%E5%90%88%E5%A4%BA%E6%9D%83%E8%AA%93%E5%B8%88%E5%A4%A7%E4%BC%9A.jpg" alt="" style="width:350px"/><figcaption class="wp-element-caption"><a href="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/1967-04_%E5%B1%B1%E8%A5%BF%E9%9D%A9%E5%91%BD%E9%80%A0%E5%8F%8D%E6%B4%BE%E5%A4%A7%E8%81%94%E5%90%88%E5%A4%BA%E6%9D%83%E8%AA%93%E5%B8%88%E5%A4%A7%E4%BC%9A.jpg/960px-1967-04_%E5%B1%B1%E8%A5%BF%E9%9D%A9%E5%91%BD%E9%80%A0%E5%8F%8D%E6%B4%BE%E5%A4%A7%E8%81%94%E5%90%88%E5%A4%BA%E6%9D%83%E8%AA%93%E5%B8%88%E5%A4%A7%E4%BC%9A.jpg" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Culture Revolution (wikimedia)</a></figcaption></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">He would go on to continue his education in Beijing, and it was here that he witnessed the Chinese Cultural Revolution taking place. He was a university student in Beijing by the time the Cultural Revolution reached full swing, but he kept his nose out of politics and was not much directly affected. By now, there were no more actual classes in university. As engineering students, they spent time working in factories. He even recalled how during the Great Leap Forward, the students busied themselves with trying to figure out how to make iron into steel at Mao Zedong’s behest.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Meanwhile, Mrs. Chen had studied to become a mechanical engineer. She was one of only three women studying computers at her university, Tianda in 1960. She went on to study in an engineering school and then became a professor from 1961 until her retirement in 1998, at the age of 60.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Spread out over almost two decades, the Chinese Cultural Revolution under Mao Zedong marked the complete upending of all societal norms. Scholars were vilified. Universities were closed. Anyone with links to bourgeois thinking or a questionable family background was blacklisted. Countless people lost their lives and countless more lost their livelihoods.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Mr. and Mrs. Chen’s experience through the Cultural Revolution was notable mostly in that they managed to remain apolitical. Academics came under siege during the Mao era, and intellectuals were frequent targets of Mao’s reforms. They knew that it was better to avoid political conflict than to get into the heat of it.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-pullquote has-palette-color-5-background-color has-background"><blockquote><p>Mr. Chen still remembers how a colleague of his being was almost buried alive before being rescued at the last minute because he refused to recant certain political beliefs. He remembers peers of his losing their jobs as well as outbursts of bloodshed on the campuses at those times.</p></blockquote></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">When asked how he managed to survive this, he admits that he wasn’t that bothered by the political crises that surrounded them. He learned mostly to keep his mouth shut and keep out of trouble.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Mrs. Chen, meanwhile, became a scribe during meetings during the Cultural Revolution. In fact, she points out that her propensity for smiling and laughter showed up even here, as people identified her during these meetings as the “one who was always giggling.” On a more serious note, she remembers colleagues of hers who died during the years of infighting, but like her husband, she avoided most political issues herself.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Of course, all my elderly patients from China are survivors of the Cultural Revolution in one way, shape or form. And of course, there is a survivorship bias here. I’m talking to survivors, those who not only lived through it, but those who lived through China’s gradual rebuild, through Tiananmen Square, through Deng Xiaoping, and now live through to be able to tell their tales as Chinese Canadian immigrants.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Of course, while China was engulfed by these years of political upheaval, the Chens moved on with their personal lives. They had already met as university students but really got to know each other better in their final year of university. They ended up matching positions in Beijing together in 1962 and have been together ever since.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The Chens have two daughters, both of whom are now successful computer engineers with graduate degrees from prestigious North American universities. Their grandchildren are also studying to become engineers as well.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">When her children were small, the Chens were busy as young academics. They were fortunate that Mrs. Chen’s hours weren’t long. She only taught two to three classes a week. Furthermore, the university had a kindergarten on site, and her mother came to help look after the grandchildren so that they could continue to work.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">When asked about parenting tips, Mrs. Chen points out that they’ve been asked this very question many times by their friends over the years: “Your daughters are both so successful. However did you manage to inspire them?”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Mrs. Chen tells me that she believes in parenting by example. She and her husband were both academics, so books were always plentiful in the house, and the parents could always be found reading. So, in time, the children saw them doing this and became intellectually curious themselves. “Don’t yell and berate,” she informs me. “That style of parenting doesn’t work anyways.”</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">What is unique about Mr. and Mrs. Chen’s immigration story is that while they have lived in Toronto for more than fifteen years, their two daughters have never lived here. This was a result of curious circumstances, but of particular relevance to our discussion.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">When they first decided to come to North America to be closer to their children, one of their daughters was still studying in Manitoba and the other was on Long Island. Toronto, they reasoned, was roughly equidistant between Long Island and Winnipeg, and so they settled here.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">A few years in though, their daughter in Manitoba married a Dutch husband, and before long, she had relocated to Holland to be closer to his family. This meant that the Chens would no longer be equidistant between the two daughters.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Still, rather than hinder their immigration experience, the fact that neither of their children are nearby seems to have strengthened their immigrant experience and actually gets to the root of how the Chens have thrived in Toronto. The Chens have never been reliant on their children. They made a point on arriving in Canada, to seek out the local LINC (Language Instruction for Newcomers to Canada) program, and began attending English classes on a regular basis. With no children to take them around, they’ve learned to make use of public transit. She tells me about how many of her fellow seniors at the community centre are reliant on their children to get around in Toronto. “They’re miserable,” she says. “They can’t do anything without their children.”</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In my experience, many Chinese immigrants, even younger ones, pay only lip service to these offerings. With the influx of Chinese immigrants to Canada, it is possible to carry on a passable existence here and almost never speak English. But the passable existence has limits. You can rely on using exclusively Chinese-speaking service providers only so much, and there’s certainly a limit to how much patience your own children will have for acting as your translators.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The Chens moved into an apartment building near a bustling shopping centre, replete with a neighbouring Chinese grocery store and a large population of Chinese seniors. This is a far cry from other seniors like my own grandparents, who often end up living with their children in the suburbs, trapped on suburban streets where the nearest community centre or grocery store can’t easily be accessed except by cars which they cannot drive.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Through their English classes, the Chens became connected to various local Chinese community groups. Mrs. Chen proudly recalls that this was where she was introduced to me, having been informed that there was a local family physician who spoke Mandarin and was accepting new patients.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image alignright size-full is-resized"><img decoding="async" width="640" height="960" src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/katie-moum-7XGtYefMXiQ-unsplash.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-11296" style="width:320px" srcset="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/katie-moum-7XGtYefMXiQ-unsplash.jpg 640w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/katie-moum-7XGtYefMXiQ-unsplash-200x300.jpg 200w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/katie-moum-7XGtYefMXiQ-unsplash-600x900.jpg 600w" sizes="(max-width: 640px) 100vw, 640px" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">&#8220;Everyone is Welcome&#8221; by &nbsp;<a href="https://unsplash.com/@katiemoum">Katie Moum</a></figcaption></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">When asked what her overall sense of her immigrant journey is, Mrs. Chen tells me that she is most grateful for how she is treated by people in the Canadian service industries. A case in point: earlier in the week prior to our interview, she had received a notification of an error in her tax return from Revenue Canada. She took it upon herself to call Revenue Canada herself, and explained to me that in Canada, if she tells the agent on the other end of the line that her English isn’t very good, the person will invariably slow down and cheerfully take their time helping answer her questions. She says that this is a level of personal attention that simply doesn’t exist in China and is one of the things she is most grateful for here.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I think back to my own experiences dealing with the service industry, from my cellular provider to Revenue Canada. I’ve experienced many feelings when dealing with these people, but gratitude has never been near the top of the list.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">These days, when the Chens visit their children in the US or in Holland, things are pleasant. Both of their daughters married foreigners. One of their son-in laws is Dutch and the other is American. They describe their son-in laws as both being extra polite, and extremely attentive to their daughter’s needs. But of course they would describe them this way. It only makes sense for such a happy couple to be able to get along just fine with their son-in-laws.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">After sitting and talking to the Chens, I took away several ideas from their story. It seems that a stressful childhood environment does not preclude being happy and balanced as an adult.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But the most remarkable trait of this amazing couple that I have learned is their willingness to adopt a growth mindset. I wonder who taught them this? Certainly, they grew up long before terms like growth and fixed mindsets became common parlance. I wonder if this comes from their background as educators. How else can I explain their willingness to come to Toronto, a country in a strange land where they had no existing family members? How else can I understand their enthusiasm for learning English at an age when many elderly are convinced that an old dog can no longer learn new tricks?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">From this growth mindset, comes the steadfast determination to look after themselves and remain independent from their children. They know they can look after themselves, and their children know it too. In this day and age of complicated intra-family dynamics, when the best-selling psychology book on Amazon is titled <em>Children of Emotionally Immature Parents</em>, I realize the Chens have somehow figured all this out and they didn’t need a self-help book to do it.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">We model ourselves, whether consciously or not on the people around us. When I was younger, I imagined that my life as a senior probably would mean living like my grandmothers: a lot of sitting around, imbibing television shows while grumbling about how nothing is quite as good as it was in the good old days. But then I think about the Chens, and it makes me realize that we’re never really too old to reinvent ourselves, or too old to move to a new country, or even too old to learn a new language. All is possible, as long as we remember to smile and laugh.</p>



<p class="has-small-font-size wp-block-paragraph">Web image by &nbsp;<a href="https://unsplash.com/@northwoodn?utm_content=creditCopyText&amp;utm_medium=referral&amp;utm_source=unsplash" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Li Lin</a>.</p>



<h4 class="wp-block-heading"><br>Additional Chapters from A Chinese City Doctor’s Notebook</h4>


<div  class="ultp-post-grid-block wp-block-ultimate-post-post-list-3 ultp-block-27621e "><div class="ultp-block-wrapper" ><div class="ultp-loading"><div class="ultp-loading-spinner" style="width:100%;height:100%"><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div></div></div><div class="ultp-block-items-wrap ultp-block-row ultp-block-column-2 ultp-block-content-middle ultp-layout1"><div class="ultp-block-item ultp-block-media post-id-13105"><div class="ultp-block-content-wrap"><div class="ultp-block-image ultp-block-image-zoomIn"><a href="https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/when-your-body-isnt-yours/" ><img decoding="async"  loading="lazy" alt="When Your Body Isn’t Yours "  src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/ChatGPT-Image-Dec-29-2025-03_55_18-PM-150x150.jpg" /></a></div><div class="ultp-block-content"><h3 class="ultp-block-title "><a href="https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/when-your-body-isnt-yours/" >When Your Body Isn’t Yours </a></h3><div class="ultp-block-meta ultp-block-meta-emptyspace ultp-block-meta-style3"><span class="ultp-block-date ultp-block-meta-element"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" fill="none" viewBox="0 0 24 24">
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768</span></div></div></div></div><div class="ultp-block-item ultp-block-media post-id-11667"><div class="ultp-block-content-wrap"><div class="ultp-block-image ultp-block-image-zoomIn"><a href="https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/from-tigers-to-otaku/" ><img decoding="async"  loading="lazy" alt="From Tigers to Otaku"  src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/BrowserPreview_tmp-4-topaz-denoise-face-150x150.jpg" /></a></div><div class="ultp-block-content"><h3 class="ultp-block-title "><a href="https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/from-tigers-to-otaku/" >From Tigers to Otaku</a></h3><div class="ultp-block-meta ultp-block-meta-emptyspace ultp-block-meta-style3"><span class="ultp-block-date ultp-block-meta-element"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" fill="none" viewBox="0 0 24 24">
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09.16.25</span><span class="ultp-post-view ultp-block-meta-element"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" fill="none" viewBox="0 0 24 24">
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1635</span></div></div></div></div><div class="ultp-block-item ultp-block-media post-id-11248"><div class="ultp-block-content-wrap"><div class="ultp-block-image ultp-block-image-zoomIn"><a href="https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/the-happiest-couple/" ><img decoding="async"  loading="lazy" alt="The Happiest Couple"  src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/BrowserPreview_tmp-11-150x150.jpg" /></a></div><div class="ultp-block-content"><h3 class="ultp-block-title "><a href="https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/the-happiest-couple/" >The Happiest Couple</a></h3><div class="ultp-block-meta ultp-block-meta-emptyspace ultp-block-meta-style3"><span class="ultp-block-date ultp-block-meta-element"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" fill="none" viewBox="0 0 24 24">
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1382</span></div></div></div></div><div class="ultp-block-item ultp-block-media post-id-10596"><div class="ultp-block-content-wrap"><div class="ultp-block-image ultp-block-image-zoomIn"><a href="https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/the-things-we-dont-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-dying/" ><img decoding="async"  loading="lazy" alt="The Things We Don’t Talk About When We Talk About Dying "  src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/alexander-grey-r6_xcsNg0kw-unsplash-e1746725533225-1-150x150.jpg" /></a></div><div class="ultp-block-content"><h3 class="ultp-block-title "><a href="https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/the-things-we-dont-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-dying/" >The Things We Don’t Talk About When We Talk About Dying </a></h3><div class="ultp-block-meta ultp-block-meta-emptyspace ultp-block-meta-style3"><span class="ultp-block-date ultp-block-meta-element"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" fill="none" viewBox="0 0 24 24">
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1961</span></div></div></div></div><div class="ultp-block-item ultp-block-media post-id-9541"><div class="ultp-block-content-wrap"><div class="ultp-block-image ultp-block-image-zoomIn"><a href="https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/one-patient-two-systems/" ><img decoding="async"  loading="lazy" alt="One Patient, Two Systems "  src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/zac-ong-HzD40FXD1hY-unsplash-e1740113067137-1-150x150.jpg" /></a></div><div class="ultp-block-content"><h3 class="ultp-block-title "><a href="https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/one-patient-two-systems/" >One Patient, Two Systems </a></h3><div class="ultp-block-meta ultp-block-meta-emptyspace ultp-block-meta-style3"><span class="ultp-block-date ultp-block-meta-element"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" fill="none" viewBox="0 0 24 24">
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		<title>The Emperor of All Maladies by Siddhartha Mukherjee</title>
		<link>https://medhum.org/review/book-review/dave_hsu/the-emperor-of-all-maladies-by-siddhartha-mukherjee/</link>
					<comments>https://medhum.org/review/book-review/dave_hsu/the-emperor-of-all-maladies-by-siddhartha-mukherjee/#respond</comments>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Hsu]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2025 19:20:36 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Book Review]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Podcast]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Apollo on Call]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[biography]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[biology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Book Club]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[cancer]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://medhum.org/?p=9622</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Two book lovers dive into The Emperor of All Maladies, exploring its impact on medicine and storytelling.  





]]></description>
										<content:encoded><![CDATA[
<h4 class="wp-block-heading">From Apollo on Call–a Medhum Podcast</h4>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-text-color has-palette-color-12-color has-alpha-channel-opacity has-palette-color-12-background-color has-background is-style-wide" style="margin-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--40);margin-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--40)"/>



<iframe loading="lazy" src="https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show/stuart-harman--david-hsu/embed/episodes/The-Emperor-of-All-Maladies-by-Siddhartha-Mukherjee-e2v19vp/a-abpn855" height="auto" width="100%" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-text-color has-palette-color-12-color has-alpha-channel-opacity has-palette-color-12-background-color has-background is-style-wide" style="margin-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--40);margin-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--40)"/>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">For more than a decade, I kept running into the <em>Emperor of All Maladies</em> at various bookstores, book shops, and libraries. Siddhartha Mukherjee’s Pulitzer Prize winning biography of cancer would glare at me from its position on the bookshelf, daring me to read it, but each time I saw it, I would mull over the idea of reading a 450 page history of medicine book, shake my head, and move on to something lighter and less strenuous. Mostly, tired from my day job as a family doctor, I just wanted to read something less medical.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image alignright size-full is-resized"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="651" height="1000" src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/61oFjl5O5wL._AC_UF10001000_QL80_.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-9636" style="width:280px" srcset="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/61oFjl5O5wL._AC_UF10001000_QL80_.jpg 651w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/61oFjl5O5wL._AC_UF10001000_QL80_-195x300.jpg 195w" sizes="auto, (max-width: 651px) 100vw, 651px" /></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Last fall, it happened yet again. I ran into the <em>Emperor of all Maladies</em> once more, this time at my local library’s annual used book sale. For the princely sum of $1, I picked up the book, flipped through it, and thought, why not?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">What I discovered was a book that was all that I had expected it to be, and more. Yes, it’s a long, exhaustive read. Yes, it contains long sections of exposition, explaining the details of how protein kinases and mRNA work on a molecular level. But it’s also eye opening and moving and manages to make the connection between what happened in hospitals and clinics a hundred years ago with the state of not just modern oncology, but modern medicine as a whole.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Last fall, I joined MedHum and before long, we realized MedHum needed a podcast. But what would we talk about? And that’s when I realized that Mukherjee’s book, with its vast scope, and comprehensiveness would be the perfect starting point for the show.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Then I thought, I needed to convince someone to read this book with me. And who better than my literary podcast buddy, Mr. Luki Danukarjanto. Luki  is a career coach, writer and the founder of Focus Inspired, a service dedicated to helping people achieve meaningful career change. He also lives in Toronto.We’ve been talking about books on the W5H Book Club podcast together for the last several years. Why not read about medical humanities?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The result is two dudes who love to read talking about a great book.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Welcome to the premiere episode of <em>Apollo On Call</em>. Enjoy.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Dr. David Hsu</p>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-text-color has-palette-color-12-color has-alpha-channel-opacity has-palette-color-12-background-color has-background is-style-wide"/>



<p class="has-small-font-size wp-block-paragraph"></p>



<details class="wp-block-details has-palette-color-1-color has-text-color has-link-color has-small-font-size wp-elements-7165b8ad30235df427c09b47f3351e7f is-layout-flow wp-block-details-is-layout-flow" style="font-style:normal;font-weight:700" open><summary>TRANSCRIPT FROM THIS EPISODE</summary>
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">‘In writing this book, I started off by imagining my project as a history of cancer, but it felt inescapably as if I were writing not about something, but about someone. My subject daily morphed into something that resembled an individual, an enigmatic, if somewhat deranged image in a mirror. This was not so much a medical history of an illness, but something more personal, more visceral: its biography.’</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">That was an excerpt from The Emperor of All Maladies, A Biography of Cancer by Siddhartha Mukherjee.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">(MUSIC)</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Welcome to Apollo On Call, the podcast of MedHum.org. I&#8217;m your host, Dr. David Hsu. Hope you enjoy the show.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Alright, welcome everyone to the first episode of Apollo On Call. I&#8217;m Dr. David Hsu,(DH) a family doctor and your host for this episode, and I&#8217;m joined by my buddy, Mr. Luki Danukarjanto, (LD) my reading book buddy, and he&#8217;s going to be giving us the non-doctor viewpoint of all the things we talk about on MedHum.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: Thanks for having me, Dr. Hsu, and a pleasure to be on this podcast.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: As always, as always. People who don&#8217;t know us, we&#8217;ve been doing other podcasts where we talk about books on a regular basis. So this is kind of our wheelhouse, but we&#8217;re shifting gears and talking about medicine and the humanities for the sake of MedHum, and if people don&#8217;t know, MedHum.org, our organization, our mission, is to explore the human condition as expressed through medicine, literature, and the arts, which is why we&#8217;re calling this podcast Apollo On Call. Because most of you probably know that Apollo is the Greek God of the Sun, but you may not realize he&#8217;s also one of the gods of medicine, the arts, and healing. So it fits right into what we&#8217;re trying to talk about here today.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: Sounds like he&#8217;s the subject of the humanities part of it, for sure, and given the medical parts, he&#8217;s the patron god of MedHum.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: I guess so. We haven&#8217;t declared that officially, but I think that is actually what&#8217;s going to happen. Now, the quote that you guys heard me read was a quote from The Emperor of All Maladies, by Siddhartha Mukherjee. This is a book that was written about a decade ago, and it&#8217;s, as he calls it, the biography of cancer. And I thought this would be a good book for us to pick as we go on our MedHum journey, because this book really encompasses a lot of information about the history of cancer and the history of medicine through that, and so maybe Luki can give us a breakdown of what this book is about. You’ve got two minutes to summarize 478 pages.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: Well, let&#8217;s start a little bit with the author. So, Siddhartha Mukherjee. He&#8217;s a doctor, he&#8217;s kind of every Asian parents’ dream. He&#8217;s done so much. He&#8217;s a trained hematologist and has discovered a whole bunch of different things. He was actually named one of Time’s 100 Most Influential People, and he&#8217;s the author of plenty of books. This one is probably the most famous one that he&#8217;s responsible for, and a bunch of other ones where he&#8217;s had some notable entries. But in terms of the story, it&#8217;s basically a biography of cancer, as the subtitle says. So it&#8217;s a journey into how cancer, I guess, was put into the normal zeitgeist, and people are aware of it, even all the way from the Egyptians to the Greeks, and as we evolved in our medical training and understanding, how that moved from the black bile in someone, all the way to this evolution in terms of different radiation therapies, chemotherapy, and understanding of how cancer evolved and the treatments as a result of it. So, it&#8217;s also view into the medical establishment and how medicine has evolved, how pharmaceuticals have evolved, and how our care of patients has evolved too well, not ‘our’ because I don&#8217;t care for patients, but Dave and his crew and how they take care of it. So it&#8217;s an interesting view of cancer and an interesting view of how people might see cancer being discovered over the ages.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: You mentioned that it traces it all the way back to ancient times, right? So there are reports of people discovering a mass growing on their chest, sticking out of the skin, but not really understanding exactly what&#8217;s causing it. But the book does make the point that cancer is a very modern thing, right? That there are mentions of it in these historical documents, but to be sure that what they&#8217;re talking about is cancer, we&#8217;re only going back a few hundred years. So it was only in the last few hundred years that we start to really categorize these things, and we&#8217;re sure that, oh, that mass that was growing is actually a tumor, and not say an abscess or an infection. Not to say that it didn&#8217;t exist before that time, but at least that&#8217;s now when we recognize it. But then it goes on to talk about the modern history of how modern medicine evolves over the last hundred, hundred and fifty years, and that&#8217;s where a lot of interesting things happen, because you start to realize that, oh, cancer is a modern illness. It&#8217;s not something that&#8217;s exactly a prehistoric illness. It isn&#8217;t something we read about in the Bible, right, or in ancient Rome much. It&#8217;s something that&#8217;s very, you know, 18th century, 19th century, 20th century, especially, right? And it coincides with the rise of certain factors that are also part of modern life, like cigarettes. And so this book goes through this whole biography, beginning to end. Well, maybe not end. There&#8217;s no obvious end in sight for cancer. So it&#8217;s an unusual biography in that sense. But that&#8217;s the basic lay of the book.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Is it because we&#8217;re detecting it more and able to do so that we have more instances of it, or did it always exist? But it seems to be that with certain environmental, certain lifestyle and chemical changes, that there is an epidemic of cancer that&#8217;s growing, and it&#8217;s kind of those leading causes of death that people seem to not know why, but there&#8217;s so many signs pointing to potential causes, and the book outlines some of them, and also some of the factors why it&#8217;s the case, and sometimes even what we can do about it to some extent, and also how our understanding is actually evolving over time as well, because it&#8217;s quite interesting to see how we used to think cancer was this type of thing, and now it&#8217;s something totally different.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Alright, so what do you want to talk about first? Do you want to talk about the patient&#8217;s viewpoint of cancer, or the doctor&#8217;s viewpoint? Who wants to step up to the plate first? You or me?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: I&#8217;ll take a second round and just let you take the lead of it. So, and to be truthful, I&#8217;m not a patient of it, so I don&#8217;t have any firsthand knowledge of cancer, but I am taking the viewpoint of the layperson, so the non-medical practitioner here, just kind of adding my two cents for some color commentaries.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: Which is actually a very valid viewpoint, right? We didn&#8217;t actually pick Luki out of nowhere for no reason, right, because, in fact, in medicine, every patient-doctor interaction, the patient is exactly 50% of that interaction, right? And most doctors have more than one patient. So actually, patients make up the vast majority of medicine stories. And I feel like sometimes medicine gets written by doctors, which is something that we need to reverse a little bit here.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: And just in case people who are listening that know me, know I&#8217;m not aware that I have cancer. So when you say patient, it&#8217;s from that viewpoint of non-medical professional in there, but you&#8217;re absolutely right where I think part of the whole mission of MedHum is to humanize medicine where it is that patient experience that is really lacking. And actually, that&#8217;s one really interesting part of the book that I noticed was the whole concept of palliative care, which I thought was just a normal part of medicine, but apparently it&#8217;s relatively recent. But we can go through some of our other discoveries as we chat a little bit more.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: Alright, so what do you want to know? You wanted me to step up first, so you want to hear the middle-aged doctor&#8217;s viewpoint about cancer in this book?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: Well, as a medically trained professional, what of this did you know and were aware of, and it was kind of like the normal teachings of a medical professional versus like, that&#8217;s news to me too, I had no idea and you&#8217;re listening to it for the first time, along with me. So that&#8217;s what I was a little bit curious about because doctors are very learned professionals. They know a lot, but at the same time they often don&#8217;t know what they don&#8217;t know too, right? It&#8217;s one of those things that the medical establishment is so vast that there&#8217;s so much that nobody knows, or nobody can know about many different areas. So unless you&#8217;re really trained in a particular area, what of it do you know? What didn&#8217;t you know? So I&#8217;m curious, Dr. Hsu.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: Okay, so the book is written in the general form. I mean, I know it calls itself a biography, but it is really a history book, right? It&#8217;s the history of medicine, talking about our understanding of cancer over a few hundred years. I have to say that I didn&#8217;t know that much about it. I&#8217;m practicing medicine these days, my patients come to see me. Some of them, you know, we find out on a mammogram that they have breast cancer, or we find on a colonoscopy they have colon cancer. A few times, I&#8217;ve noticed someone has, like, a lump growing on their neck, and it turns out to be cancer. So, this is something that I&#8217;m interacting with on a fairly regular basis. But just like you, I&#8217;ve kind of taken for granted that certain structures exist, and in my head, I&#8217;ve sometimes realized they didn&#8217;t always exist, but I think of them as if they always existed, right? I think that, oh, everyone probably did mammograms. I mean, obviously we know that&#8217;s not true, and at some point a program for screening mammograms must have started. So when did that start? How did it get implemented? These are things that we never really get taught in medicine. And to actually peel back the cover for a lot of these things that I do on a regular basis and see that, oh, so these were the dudes who thought of the idea that everyone should get a mammogram, and then how they were racing around trying to enroll as many women as they could to do it. And it wasn&#8217;t really that long ago. Like, I think that particular example was from the 60s, right? Whereas, I&#8217;m in my mid 40s now, to me, I feel like, oh, mammogram screening must have been around forever, but really not that old of a thing. All these things are very, very new and I didn&#8217;t know a ton about it. Some of it I knew a little bit about. To be honest, when we&#8217;re going through medical school, there&#8217;s just so much information that&#8217;s thrown at you that we only have a few lectures here and there to talk about the history of medicine, a few lectures to talk about ethics. There isn&#8217;t time to discuss it. And a lot of times in medicine, we have this idea that the science takes precedence. So we need to understand how the science works today. You know, if you have extra time, yeah, sure, go read about the past. But that&#8217;s not as important, right? This book is trying to give us a fuller picture of it, which I really appreciate, because I learned a lot. So a lot of the history of how things came to be was fascinating, and a lot of things about how everything ties together. This book isn&#8217;t just about cancer, right? As I read it, I realized this is about the history of all of medicine, right? That without radiology, right, without this ability to take a picture of an x-ray of your bones, we wouldn’t be able to take a picture of a patient&#8217;s tumor, right? And without the knowledge that we developed to have surgery, to be able to cut someone open reliably and not kill them, then there&#8217;s no treatment for cancer. And all of these things are intertwined. And it keeps going, like these advances even into the 80s, right? Like AIDS gets discovered, and they sort of start to figure out that, oh, it&#8217;s caused by a virus, and then that understanding of how the virus works affects the understanding of how people are researching different types of cancer. Everything is tied together in this giant web. It is fascinating to see how it evolves, and it&#8217;s crazy to realize how new all of this is. So there&#8217;s this element of technology that gets thrown into modern medicine, which is probably different than like, you know, if you and I were sitting there having a podcast 500 years ago, right, or we&#8217;re telling oral story traditions about the history of medicine up to that point, there wouldn&#8217;t be that element This thing turns into a race, right? And things are happening really quickly and within a person&#8217;s lifetime, you know, paradigms are getting shifted and thrown on their heads repeatedly.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: I&#8217;d be curious to hear about what happened since the publishing of this book, because if you trace back all of the advancements that happened, well, did they come up with a cure for cancer, like yesterday or something, who knows? Or are they really close to it, on the verge of it, any day now?<br>.<br>DH: The other thing I will say is that, as a medical student, we have some time to talk about basic sciences, so there&#8217;s some understanding of how genes work. So, as Mukherjee starts talking about, you know, proto-oncogenes and, you know, reverse transcriptase, little bells are going off in my head. I don&#8217;t know where, like, I&#8217;m looking around trying to figure out, okay, I think I knew a little bit about that, or this gene, but a lot of that stuff also, like when we&#8217;re in medical school, we&#8217;re just trying, we&#8217;re scrambling to just understand the basics, right, to be able to interview a patient, figure out basically why the patient&#8217;s here, where they need to go, and sometimes the nuts-and-bolts science of it gets lost, right? We&#8217;re in over our heads. We don&#8217;t have time to master that. So this book actually, not only is it trying to present the details of the history and the past and the humanities aspect, it&#8217;s also presenting a very detailed description of science, right, of the new scientific innovations that are happening and trying to present that to the layperson, which is a really impressive, ambitious thing that it&#8217;s trying to do. Difficult to read at times, I have to admit, but very ambitious.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: For sure, yeah, I would echo that sentiment, where sometimes it&#8217;s like, what is this and what is this acronym, or our concept of this and that? But at some point it’s like, okay, I&#8217;ll just kind of get through this point. But I&#8217;d love if you could comment a little bit where the way that I start the discussion is thinking about how doctors are even engaged in the first place, right? So they&#8217;re always these learned folks put on a pedestal, like they know so much, they can help save me, heal me, prolong my life, that sort of thing. And then you have a cancer diagnosis, and they start cutting off all sorts of pieces or giving you these experimental drugs, and you&#8217;re just like, okay, the doctor is doing it to the best of their ability, to the best their knowledge, and all of it is going to heal me, and I, through my full being, trust this person, right? So trying to think about doctors in the concept of the whole, world establishment, societal establishment, where they&#8217;re all at the top of the knowledge pyramid, and the openness for everybody to take in some of these procedures and just say, okay, my doctor said I&#8217;ll do it, so I&#8217;ll do it. Wondering if you have any thoughts around that, you being that person who can prescribe and thou shalt whatever.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: I&#8217;m glad that you think of me as being at the pinnacle of human knowledge. But no,</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: Always, Dave, always.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: I think in this book, a lot of what&#8217;s happening in the background is it speaks to the desperation of everything that&#8217;s happening. Because, this isn&#8217;t a book about, you know, hip fractures. This is a book about death, right? And cancer is something that historically, even now, it’s a very scary word, right? And I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s changed Even though I&#8217;ve read about all these protein kinases and all these inhibitors and all this progress, none of us wants to hear that word when we go to see the doctor, right? And that didn&#8217;t change at all. And I feel like the doctors in this book, who are fighting against cancer, they&#8217;re fighting against death all the time, and so they&#8217;re willing to do craziness to achieve it. And I think that point gets underscored many times in this narrative. The most interesting I found was in the earliest days, I&#8217;m talking turn of the 20th century, you know, early 1900s, very primitive surgical techniques exist. The concept that we can remove a tumor that might buy the person a little bit more time, so maybe we should remove the area around the tumor. So for breast cancer, we&#8217;ll remove the entire chest wall. Well, maybe we&#8217;ll get into the neck, we&#8217;ll just start removing organs in the neck, like these massive surgeries, because people are just desperate. They want to live a little bit longer. They already see that the writing&#8217;s on the wall that if you get one of these diagnoses, you&#8217;re finished. So the doctors are trying everything. And, as time passes, it gets a little bit more rigorous. It gets a lot more rigorous, and where we become a lot more careful, but the basic premise is still the same. We&#8217;re up against death. And I feel like that&#8217;s why people are willing to, for the most part, try what the doctors are selling, right? And sometimes it works, and a lot of times it doesn&#8217;t. And in the later part of the book, actually, he does this throughout the book, he sprinkles a bit of his own patient narratives into the book, right, of patients that he saw when he was a fellow in oncology. And so we kind of see how some modern-day patients handle this. And it&#8217;s sort of the same, you know, people are out there trying everything. They&#8217;re on blogs, they&#8217;re on message boards, they&#8217;re probably on Reddit trying to figure out what the newest options are for their diagnosis. When the metastatic cancer comes back, they&#8217;re trying to figure out what to do. It&#8217;s the weapons and the tools are a little bit different, but the idea is the same. They&#8217;re up against death.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: Yeah, and I think they mentioned it in some of the later stories, where there were these groups of patients that were sometimes gathering together and telling their doctors, hey, can you get me on this one because they heard it from another patient somewhere else, right? And it becomes that information exchange at a different level, because historically, it was the doctors, the medical establishment, that knew all this stuff. But now, with the internet and forums and stuff, everybody&#8217;s got information and everybody&#8217;s got an opinion. So, right, it&#8217;s interesting.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: I feel like you were asking me, how much of it did I know, much of I don&#8217;t know. I came away from this book feeling like we do know a lot about cancer in some ways, but in some other ways, we still don&#8217;t know that much at all. I felt like, if we really understood it well, we wouldn&#8217;t be so scared of it, but it is still a pretty daunting thing, right? For only a few specific types of cancer, there are some treatments that work really well, and sometimes there are treatments that work well, that prolong mortality for a few years. And with that itself, we call that working really, really well, right? So we&#8217;re making some small progress, but there&#8217;s still so much we don&#8217;t know. That seems to be my takeaway point from this book.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: For sure, it’s like a lot of things with the human body or the human condition that we&#8217;re only kind of scratching the surface, but I think we&#8217;re making good progress, and hopefully we&#8217;ll be able to save a lot more people as a result. But if I were to take a stab at saying like, well, how do I understand cancer based on this, if I can make some presumptions. I mean, I have very little experience, right? I might have some friends whose relatives may have had a cancer diagnosis, but I don&#8217;t have anybody close to me that has gone through it. So this is coming from almost like a fresh set of eyes, learning about cancer, its history, and all that sort of thing..</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: Okay, from that vantage point, fresh set of eyes, before you read the book, if you heard the word cancer, what would you presume? What was your understanding of it going into the book?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: Well, I was always interested in, like peak performance, and part of it is medicine, right? So I have listened to podcasts and watched some YouTube videos on cancer, just because it&#8217;s one of those pervasive diseases that you should probably know about, more on the prevention side, versus what to do when you have it. And we hear the word like, carcinogens, right? We recently figured out what these things are and, well, that makes sense, because they didn&#8217;t always, or we didn&#8217;t know they existed, right? Someone had to have figured it out. So thinking about what those are, and you mentioning that this is a very like modern-day disease, where a lot of it is, call it the conveniences, like the coal, the energy, all these chemicals that are in our homes to make it more comfortable to live in. A lot of that becomes the cause of cancer. And I mean the way that I understood it, it&#8217;s just<br>cells that don&#8217;t want to die, and they pervasively grow much more than others. Now what causes that is probably those carcinogens. This is one case, and then there&#8217;s a bit of genetics thrown into it, and the combination of those two, and probably some other factors that we don&#8217;t yet know about is what causes it, but those types of things where, to be honest, I didn&#8217;t know too much about it, and I&#8217;m kind of learning a little bit more. I can&#8217;t say I know a lot about it now, but I am a little bit more familiar with it, at least to talk to my fellow lay person.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: So coming from that angle, which I think is what most people’s view on cancer is, like a lot of us don&#8217;t even realize that cancer isn&#8217;t one disease, it&#8217;s sort of a term that encompasses anything with unregulated cell growth, right, and so coming from that angle, what are the things from this book that you would take away that were meaningful to you?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: I liked one of the sections where it said prevention is the cure.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: I knew you would like that, actually,</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: That’s one of those things where, when you have cancer, it&#8217;s, I don&#8217;t call it&#8217;s too late, but the way that I&#8217;ve understood is like our bodies have abnormal growth all the time, but our natural immune systems are able to get rid of it, and it&#8217;s this some sort of trigger, some sort of threshold that&#8217;s crossed that makes it overwhelming to the body, so that it can&#8217;t take over these. Now again, whether it&#8217;s genetics and or some environmental factors or lifestyle or whatever it is, that&#8217;s still not 100% known, because for people that live in a certain environment with certain genetics, the person right beside them, like their identical twin or whatever, might not ever develop it. So we still don&#8217;t know so much about it, but the fact that you can kind of live a good lifestyle and still get cancer and live a bad lifestyle, I think they had people who like smoked till whatever, and they were fine, versus people who get second hand smoke who aren&#8217;t so fortunate. Those are kind of the interesting parts of it, and just the genetic progression of it, where you can have, I guess, multiple different contributing factors that will lead to it?. So I don&#8217;t know, there&#8217;s so many more questions, I guess, as a result of this. But I think one of my curiosities was, to your point, this is really a story of like, death, where they&#8217;re given this prognosis, you have cancer, so you need to, and are willing to do pretty much anything and everything in order to avert that prognosis, because you might have months, you might be lucky to have years there, but you&#8217;re basically gonna die, right? So how are you gonna arrange your affairs? How are you going to live it to the best of your ability? So things like the concept of radical surgery, where you cut off everything, and cancer might not be here there, but let&#8217;s cut it off anyway, just in case. So it&#8217;s kind of like, yes, you want to live, but like, at what cost, and people looking like they’re skeletons as they&#8217;re going through chemotherapy and all that stuff. And again, at what cost? That&#8217;s the interesting thing. But again, this comes from someone who has not gone through it and if I was faced with death, maybe I’ll be like, yeah, bring on any new, novel thing, just test me. Guinea pig, patient number zero, go ahead, because what else do I have to lose?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: Desperate times call for desperate measures, that is one of the themes of this story.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: Yeah, for sure.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: Okay, one question I have for you is, you weren&#8217;t really a biology science guy from what I remember.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: No.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: So what about reading this book? It’s almost 500 pages, and there&#8217;s probably a good 250 pages that&#8217;s dedicated to, like a hardcore scientific explanation of this stuff. I have to admit that this isn&#8217;t my cup of tea. This is the stuff I would have tuned out when I was a student. I tried my best here to plow through this. What did you think of it?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: It could have probably been about 200 pages shorter. But a lot of that is somewhat interesting, where, minus some of the super specifics of, like the different chemicals, and genome components and stuff like that, the fundamental components of cell replication, the fact that chromosome breakage probably leads to the activation of certain tumors, and out of control growth and things like that, right? I don&#8217;t know that they really talked about it, but the study of epigenetics, I&#8217;m familiar with that, where it leads to all the outside conditions, is really what influences your genes, right? Because your genes are your genes, but that doesn&#8217;t mean they&#8217;re your destiny. It&#8217;s one of those things where, with certain lifestyle changes, you can potentially avert cancer, but sometimes it&#8217;s just written in the stars, that sort of thing, right?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: What I thought was interesting was that he was able, in the narrative, to weave the science with the history of how the science evolved. There&#8217;s this whole component of how this research happens, there&#8217;s all these scientists in labs around the world, but a lot of is American. So actually, this was one thing I was going to say, is that this is a biography of an American disease, almost, because most of the research is happening in America, and the viewpoint, the perspective of everything seems to be fairly American centric. But I really enjoyed how he was able to tie our understanding of the science with some of these bigger picture, social things that were happening at the same time, right? And for example, cancer research doesn&#8217;t happen without fundraising, and that wasn&#8217;t the thing, if you go back 200 years ago, people weren&#8217;t stumping on hotlines to raise money for your local hospital. We kind of take it for granted that this is a thing now, but this is a thing now because of cancer, right? So this is a part of the story of cancer is that it spun off these industries on the side, so fundraising becomes a thing, or this whole business of pharmaceutical companies now are trying to figure out, well, what should we spend our money on? We can spend research on this disease or that disease. How do we pick the one that we&#8217;re going to spend on? Obviously, it&#8217;s the one that&#8217;s going to make them more money, right? So certain promising research for cancers that aren&#8217;t as prevalent maybe doesn&#8217;t happen, right? So a lot of weird and interesting little issues arise in this whole narrative, which I thought, that stuff actually, to me, was much more interesting than the cellular level. But I guess the cellular level has to be there.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: You can&#8217;t extract it if you&#8217;re going to call it a true biography of cancer, but I think you alluded to in the introduction, where one area of interest was the whole concept of like cigarettes, how recent they are, and how they came bursting onto the scene and how they&#8217;re still around, even though everybody knows that they&#8217;re not good for you, but people still smoke.<br>DH: We were just on a trip in the Caribbean, and I was walking by, like a shop that puts the cigarettes right in the window, and they have these giant boxes, right? The box has a little white box on it, I mean, we&#8217;ve all seen those labels. Cigarette smoking can kill you. It&#8217;s these block letters. People don&#8217;t care. They&#8217;re still doing good business. It&#8217;s really crazy. I was shocked to learn &#8211; this is probably out of this whole book &#8211; the thing that shocked me the most that I after I read it, I started messaging people, I started quizzing my kids, when did cigarettes become a thing? And I just assumed that cigarettes were something from medieval times, and has been going on for hundreds and hundreds of years, but it&#8217;s really just from around 1850. We created this monster, and we can&#8217;t put it back in the box.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: You don&#8217;t see, like, all the knights in the round table smoking some cigarettes.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: I assumed that it was old, because I always had this idea that Sherlock Holmes was smoking all the time with a pipe, but he really is just from the 1800s.This is a really new thing, and it speaks to if, whichever dude it was that rolled that tobacco a new piece of paper and smoked, if he doesn&#8217;t do that, maybe we don&#8217;t go down this road. But anyways, that was shocking to me. You&#8217;ve mentioned that the palliative care bit was kind of shocking to you. So that was also interesting in the sense that so many of these structures that we have in medicine now that we kind of take for granted that this exists, didn&#8217;t exist very long ago at all. Our grandparents generation, probably they grew up and got into old age without realizing that palliative care was a thing.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: One of the quotes in the book was that death meant failure to any of these doctors. So they would not allow you to say, oh, yeah, just, just die in comfort, die peacefully. It&#8217;s like, no, we&#8217;re gonna go down trying, and we&#8217;re gonna cut more, we&#8217;re gonna give you more chemicals, we&#8217;re gonna give you more this and that, whatever, and we&#8217;re gonna save you, gosh darn it, that sort of thing, right? And to realize that you know what, it&#8217;s a terminal disease, and you&#8217;re only going to have a few months and let&#8217;s make it comfortable. That&#8217;s new.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: It&#8217;s crazy, because I have a feeling that if I was a medical student 40 years earlier, I could very well be one of these cutting guys, right? I&#8217;d be like, no, no, we got to keep fighting. And it makes you wonder, like, 50 years from now, when people look back to today, they&#8217;re like, you guys were barbarians back there. You did that ? You gave people chemotherapy. You crazy, right? But things change, and I think this book does touch on that, and the speed, and, the scope of all these changes, it&#8217;s quite, quite incredible,</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: One curiosity that I have is recently is AI has jumped on the scene. So how much of this new cutting-edge technology could help? Because a lot of what they mentioned is they find one chemical that will help with this type of cancer, but then it mutates, and now they have to adjust it to this one. It&#8217;s well, now can AI build a protein for that and make it so that you can almost have like a custom-developed cancer treatment for you and your particular instance and all through the push of a button. And we&#8217;re not there yet, but I think it&#8217;s just a matter of time until they really isolate all these things, assuming cancer is what the book is kind of alluding to, because it could be elusive where it actually is something totally different, and what we think it is right now is something totally different, and there&#8217;s another plot twist in the book that they don&#8217;t consider until the next edition is out, or whatever.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: Did you did you feel that cancer sounds more scary to you or less scary to you after reading this thing, given that you didn&#8217;t know a lot about it before?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s one of those things where, when you read about it you’re like, I have those symptoms, those types of things, where I was like feeling different parts of my body.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: Oh, that&#8217;s like, a medical student thing. When you&#8217;re going through med school, everyone thinks they whatever unit you&#8217;re on, you have that symptom for a few days.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: So I was cognizant of that because I was, wait, make sure you&#8217;re not believing that you’re having these symptoms. Dave, I&#8217;m gonna kill you for suggesting this book. At the end of it, I was like, do I think have cancer or maybe I have cancer? But no, to your question, I think towards the end, it actually gave me quite a bit of hope in the sense that they&#8217;re starting to understand it. And it&#8217;s just a matter of time where, again, they can create that right formula, that right system, where this cocktail of chemicals can be done for a particular one, because they have it for some, and there&#8217;s a huge increase in life as a result of and I think they distinguish between life and health, where health span versus life span, where you don&#8217;t want to be, like, living to an extra 20 years like an invalid, that sort of thing, you&#8217;d rather be living that actually out and about. So it&#8217;s given me hope. And it&#8217;s one of those things where, I mean, if someone said, hey, I have, I got cancer, it&#8217;s like, well, let me pull out the book and see what I can do to help. No, I don&#8217;t think it really has answers, but it will be one where you can start looking a little bit more and you&#8217;ll have more things to take a look at. I&#8217;m a little bit more positive as a result of this book. But how about you as the doctor, knowing more has it made you feel better or feel a little bit more challenged?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: I don&#8217;t think it changes. I&#8217;m still pretty darn afraid of it.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: Don&#8217;t get me wrong. I&#8217;m still afraid of it.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: I do think that I understand a little bit better why patients would be super afraid of it because I interact with it tangentially on a regular, semi regular basis. But a lot of patients probably have heard stories, you know, horror stories from their parents, 60s, 70s, right? Or from their grandparents, right? And so, I have seen some of these changes seep down into even like a family doctor&#8217;s office in 2024. It&#8217;s nice to know that, you know, there is targeted therapy for certain tumors. And not everyone needs chemotherapy.. And it&#8217;s changed even from the time I was a student till now. So it&#8217;s nice to see that these advances are coming along. And I&#8217;m really happy to be living in 2024. I&#8217;d rather be here than in 1924 that&#8217;s for sure. And so I think this book did present that hope, and I think I think that&#8217;s what you&#8217;re alluding to.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: Yeah, and it&#8217;s one where taking a look at little nuggets, that whole chapter on prevention is a cure. One of the things that I thought was interesting was even social networks as strategy for cancer prevention. So the more people and this might be bad, but the likelihood of cancer increases or decreases depending on who&#8217;s around you. It’s that notion of you are the average of the five people that you spend the most time with. So if you&#8217;re spending time with smokers, right, who end up with cancer, guess what? You&#8217;ll probably have it. The scary part to me is that you could be like the healthiest person in the world, but still end up with cancer too. So it&#8217;s not necessarily that it&#8217;s 100% under your control. There are other factors that could have you go one way or the other. But I did find it interesting how there were kind of nuggets of hope and this is what you can do about it, because you&#8217;re not predestined for cancer or whatever your genes or whatever your environment or whatever is laid out in front of you.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: Now, before we go, there are a lot of little fun nuggets in this book. Maybe we can just touch on a couple other ones to give people a taste of what they&#8217;re in for, if they read this thing. Give me some nuggets that you really enjoyed.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: I actually liked the way they created Jimmy.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: I didn&#8217;t know that story, I didn&#8217;t know that either. The notion is to start with the fundraising in order to get monies for the cancer treatment or the research. Then they pretty much invented this character name.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: Which is real, he was a guy.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: He was real, but his, he wasn&#8217;t named Jimmy.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: That&#8217;s true, he was a kid.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">He was a kid, and he was around, but he wasn&#8217;t Jimmy. And I think he had a fairly ethnic name, and they made it Jimmy, just to make it so that everybody could relate. And you&#8217;d have Jimmy updates and things like that, and Jimmy was a celebrity. I thought that was an interesting bit. What&#8217;s one that you well remember?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">HD: In line with the Jimmy story, there&#8217;s this whole story about Mary Lasker, the fundraising lady. Yes, this lady is just a philanthropist who decides to make cancer her pet cause and donates a ton of money, energy, time, her whole life, to fighting cancer. And you don&#8217;t think about philanthropists a lot in terms of when you think about the war on cancer. The first people that pop to mind are probably doctors, these old surgeons. You think about the patient suffering, but there are people in the background doing incredible things. And I&#8217;m glad that this gets touched on in the book. It really rounds out the story fuller because it&#8217;s showing cancer&#8217;s place in the world and how so many of us, in different ways, can do our part to help fight it. That&#8217;s cool, I like that part.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: Another part which we sort of touched on is all these experimental drug treatments and people who have tried everything. They&#8217;re willing to be those guinea pigs. And not only willing, they&#8217;re, like, demanding to be part of these trials where it&#8217;s experimental, it&#8217;s like, yes, sign me up. I found that quite interesting, where they&#8217;d get to the point where they would sue people to say, you didn&#8217;t open up these trials for us so we couldn&#8217;t get access to the latest cutting-edge experimental medicine and all that. And it goes back to the discussion of being close to death and trying anything. I found that interesting where you demand the drug companies to, who cares about all your double-blind, placebo controlled, whatever. Just give me it, if it works, it works, right, just give it to me.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: Well, in keeping with that, the other story that I enjoyed in a couple of these stories, was the examples of physicians or scientists doing research on themselves in some wacky way, right? They couldn&#8217;t get approval to do the study, and no one else was willing to take the medicine. The one I&#8217;m thinking of is the guy who figured out that stomach ulcers and stomach cancer is caused by the H. pylori bacteria. He just got fed up with waiting and just drank the bacteria himself. That was cool. I was like, wow, this guy&#8217;s a real martyr for their cause. He deserves, like, a special place in doctor heaven. And then there&#8217;s Marie Curie, like those early people who were working with imaging, and the radioactive material that allowed them to be able to see their bones and then would kill them a few years later. Pretty incredible that people were willing to, I mean, they didn&#8217;t know it, maybe in the example of the radiologist, but people are putting their lives at risk to advance science. We sometimes lose sight of that in modern times when we think about scientists. But these, these old school people, they were really pushing the boundaries.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: And one of the interesting things I found was all of the different like trials of testing where they had conscripted some people, but in some of the earlier ones are just like they put them in the trials. They didn&#8217;t really sign up, or the patients, as far as I could understand, they didn&#8217;t really sign up for it. They were just given this, and the other group was given that. So were they even consulted? Were they even aware? Did they even know there were options to do this?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: The book talks about this. At some point, they started randomizing the groups and trying to figure out statistics. The book even talks about the history of how medical statistics and biostatistics becomes a thing. All of this stuff is so new. It&#8217;s all stuff we take for granted. That is, ultimately, what I think is the coolest part of this book. So we&#8217;ve read the book, we&#8217;ve talked about the book. Do we recommend this book to people who are interested in medical humanities, and if so, who are those people that should read this thing?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: Anybody who&#8217;s scared of cancer, I think should take a read.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">HD: That&#8217;s pretty much everyone. That&#8217;s a broad net that you&#8217;re casting. See, I don&#8217;t know if everybody&#8217;s afraid of cancer, because it&#8217;s one of those things that if it doesn&#8217;t really affect you, I don&#8217;t know if they&#8217;re truly aware. I think it&#8217;s one where you hear of one person, you&#8217;re like, okay. Then you hear of 2, 3, 4, and then you&#8217;re like, oh, okay. And then a little bit more, you&#8217;re like, it&#8217;s coming for me, I should read this book. It&#8217;s probably where I would suggest, because it does have that history and anyone interested in, I guess, medical humanities, because it is that link between the medical establishment and kind of the rest of society, where it&#8217;s even turning common assumptions on their head to say, like, this stuff wasn&#8217;t common knowledge, like, only a couple of decades ago. And now all of us are, of course, you don&#8217;t smoke a cigarette. Why would you want to do that, right? And even still, some people haven&#8217;t got the message. I think he does a good job of weaving the science and the humanities together. And that makes it a good read. When you&#8217;re in medicine as a physician, and probably when you&#8217;re in it as a patient, there aren&#8217;t a lot of things that weave these two things together. A lot of times these two things get siloed off, You&#8217;re either dealing with the touchy-feely art of everything, or you&#8217;re dealing with the numbers. And this book actually brings the two together in an interesting way. I think it&#8217;s a good introductory podcast for MedHum, for sure. It is a good read for people, but it is long and it&#8217;s not easy. This was what my oncology friend warned me when I said, this is the book we&#8217;re gonna do first. And she&#8217;s like, you sure? This is not easy to read.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: If someone could create a version that&#8217;s kind of half the size, then I think it would get way more readers and a lot more adoption. Maybe, but then you would drop the science part, right? You drop a lot of science and keep the funny stories about the fundraising and, you know, a very bare-bones science. But I feel like the book needs that detail, that heft.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">HD: I think you could whittle down the science details, but still keep the science behind it, right. So I&#8217;m reminded there&#8217;s this anime that we were watching, and it&#8217;s called Cells At Work, where it basically personifies and like you have this, the main character is like a red blood cell, but it&#8217;s basically a character with red hair, and they carry these boxes of oxygen to different parts.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: He does this type of thing in this book. I&#8217;m just saying, if he had a little bit more of that, I think it would be more. So just maybe turn this into an anime and get the Japanese folks to make it epic, you&#8217;ll definitely have an award winner. But I do sense that there was definitely some of that. And I think just for the true lay person like versus the invested person who really wants to do it. I think some of that would help more. But yeah, a lot of great information, a lot of great insights on this, for sure. And he did a good job.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">DH: Excellent. So we learned something, which is our goal here. Our goal, every month, we&#8217;ll learn a little bit of something on Apollo On Call. So, there you have it. The first episode of Apollo On Call is in the books. I hope Apollo, wherever you are, you&#8217;re happy with this podcast. We did our best. We tried to find a book that was dense but entertaining, and tries to tether medicine and the humanities together. I think we did an okay job with it.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">LD: Yeah, I think so.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">HD: Alright, and if not, we&#8217;re gonna keep working on it. So come back in a month, we&#8217;ll have some other content just hit us up about once a month. We&#8217;re gonna be producing some different types of material on this show. Sometimes it&#8217;ll be books, might be films. Sometimes we&#8217;ll be interviewing people who work in medical humanities, all of it. The idea is to bring the world of medicine and humanities a little bit closer together to people.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">‘Taken to its logical extreme, the cancer cell’s capacity to consistently imitate, corrupt, and pervert normal physiology thus raises the ominous question of what “normalcy” is. ‘Cancer,’ Carla said, ‘is my new normal,’ and quite possibly cancer is our normalcy as well, that we are inherently destined to slouch towards a malignant end. Indeed, as the fraction of those affected by cancer creeps inexorably in some nations from one in four to one in three to one in two, cancer will, indeed, be the new normal. The question then will not be if we will encounter this immortal illness in our lives, but when.’</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Apollo On Call is produced by MedHum.org.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Special thanks to my co-host today, Mr. Luki Danukarjanto. The theme song is Un Sospiro by Franz Liszt and is performed by my wife, Dr. Justina Sam. Thank you all for listening.</p>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-text-color has-palette-color-12-color has-alpha-channel-opacity has-palette-color-12-background-color has-background is-style-wide"/>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"></p>
</details>



<h5 class="wp-block-heading">Transcript from this episode</h5>
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			</item>
		<item>
		<title>Confrontation </title>
		<link>https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/a-chinese-city-doctors-notebook-chapter-one-confrontation/</link>
					<comments>https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/a-chinese-city-doctors-notebook-chapter-one-confrontation/#respond</comments>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Hsu]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Dec 2024 18:37:57 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Narrative]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[A Chinese City Doctor’s Notebook]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[bribe]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[canada]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[chinese]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[clinic]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[communication]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[conflict]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[confrontation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[decision]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[escalation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ethics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[hypertension]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[immigrant]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[insurance]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[integrity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[language]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mandarin]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[medical records]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[misunderstanding]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[patient]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[pressure]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[safety]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[stress]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[tension]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Toronto]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://medhum.org/?p=8779</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[
One cup of coffee, one angry patient, and one harrowing sprint down the clinic hallway changed everything.]]></description>
										<content:encoded><![CDATA[
<h4 class="wp-block-heading">A Chinese City Doctor’s Notebook–Chapter One&nbsp;</h4>



<p class="has-palette-color-5-background-color has-background wp-block-paragraph" style="font-size:clamp(14px, 0.875rem + ((1vw - 3.2px) * 0.078), 15px);"><em>The place: a nondescript, ramshackle medical clinic located on the second floor of a large Chinese mall, located in the suburbs of Toronto, just north of the city, circa 2008.</em>&nbsp;<br><br><em>Our narrator, the protagonist, is a newly minted family physician, a Chinese Canadian who grew up not far from this neighbourhood.</em>&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">On this otherwise nondescript morning, I get into the office and find that the first patient of the day is already waiting for me.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">On my way into exam room eight, I grab the large patient file that sits in the file holder just outside the door. Many of these files are for longstanding patients of the clinic, and even though I’ve only been working at the clinic for just over a year now, I’ve basically inherited them and their problems from the doctors who worked shifts here before me.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Inside the room are two middle aged Chinese men. One is a stocky, heavy built man in work clothes. Next to him is a clean-shaven man wearing a dress shirt and slacks. I vaguely recognize the larger man. I’ve definitely seen him before. I’m not sure who his friend is.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The two men greet me enthusiastically.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“Good morning doctor,” says the man I recognize.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“Here, we bought you a cup of coffee,” says the other man. He points at a styrofoam cup of Chinese mall coffee that is sitting on my desk.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I nod and smile. It occurs to me that it is odd that they are so friendly. But it won’t be the last odd thing to happen to me on this day.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“What brings you in today?” I ask in Mandarin. I’ve gotten used to speaking Mandarin during the majority of my patient encounters at this clinic. In fact, I’ve spoken more Mandarin since I started this job than I have in the preceding ten years, maybe since childhood when I spent a year living in Taiwan.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The man in the dress shirt speaks. “Do you remember filling out a life insurance application for him recently?”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">As he speaks, I open the manila folder and start flipping through the chart to orient myself. I do remember this chart. The patient, the blue-collar worker, is not a regular patient of mine. I’ve only seen him once or twice in the past over the last few months, for prescription refills, and a discussion about his hypertension. Most of the chart, years and years of doctor visits, predates me.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">A month or two earlier, a request came in from an insurance company, asking me to provide a letter documenting the patient’s medical record. Insurance companies use these records to determine if a patient should qualify for life insurance, or how much of a premium they should pay based on their pre-existing medical conditions.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“Yes. I do remember filling this out for you.” It is starting to dawn on me what the purpose of this visit is. The problem here is that the patient has a long history of high blood pressure, and he’s been consistently noncompliant with his treatment. I flip further back through the chart. There are multiple records of high blood pressure readings over the years, and lists of medications that were prescribed that he never ended up taking.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">All of this was documented in the note that I sent back to the insurance company last month when they asked me for a record of the patient’s medical history.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Now it’s the patient’s turn to speak. “I don’t understand why I didn’t qualify for insurance. I have no health problems. What did you write on the insurance application?”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I brace myself. I know he won’t like the answer. “I didn’t write anything special. I just told them what happened at your doctor visits based on what is written in the chart.”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“You told them that I have high blood pressure?”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“You did have high blood pressure at the last visit.” I turn the notes to the page from the last visit. “Your blood pressure was 154/96 at the last visit.”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“I don’t have high blood pressure. I feel fine.”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Of course, the patient feels fine. Hypertension is a silent disease. Patients usually don’t feel anything.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“Why don’t you check my blood pressure now? I’ll prove to you that I’m fine.”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I can feel myself start to tense up. I’m not really sure how to extricate myself from this situation. I agree to check his blood pressure as a way to buy myself some time.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I put his arm inside the blood pressure cuff and pump the cuff. I use the silence to think about what I should do next but there isn’t enough time. Nothing comes to me.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Not surprisingly, the reading is elevated.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“160/100” I report. I try not to sound too triumphant. “It’s still high.”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The patient ponders this for a moment.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The friend decides to try a different tack. “Doctor, my friend here is trying to apply for health insurance. Can you please help us out? “&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“I’m not sure how I can help.” As I say this, I look up and notice once again, the styrofoam cup of coffee. Now I see the gift for what it is. A payout or a bribe. Either way, something dirty.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“If you can just write a letter explaining that he is healthy and he doesn’t have these issues, we can take it to the insurance company. Please help us out.”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I have to choose my words carefully here. It’s harder for me to do this in Mandarin and I wish I could speak English here. “I can’t do that. It’s in the file. I can’t change the record.” I open the file and show the two men. The patient has a long history of high blood pressure. It isn’t one reading, or one visit, but a pattern of high readings over many years. I try to explain this in as simple Mandarin as I can.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“Really? All we need is just a letter, explaining that he is healthy.”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">For a moment, I’m tempted to write them a letter, just to get them out the door. But what purpose would it serve? There’s no way around the fact that the insurance company has already received my prior correspondence clearly documenting the high blood pressure readings. I can’t lie to them. I think about my medical license, my career, and the prospect of losing it all over a two-dollar styrofoam cup of coffee.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I shake my head. “I can’t do it.”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In medical school, we attend classes on how to conduct patient interviews. We’re taught ways to de-escalate angry patients who are upset about things like having waited too long in the waiting room. For patient visits that are spiraling out of control, we’re taught the importance of body language. If a visit is going nowhere, we’re taught to stand up and move towards the door. This will suggest to the patient that this discussion is coming to an end. So this is what I do. I get up and move towards the door.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The patient and his friend look offended. “Why are you getting up? We’re not done talking.”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I’m now feeling very edgy. Medical school didn’t teach me what to do in this situation. A pit is forming in the bottom of my stomach. My sympathetic nervous system has kicked into overdrive.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“I don’t have anything more to say.” I manage to force out this sentence in slow, stilted Mandarin, but my stomach is churning.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“Why can’t you help us?”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“I didn’t say I can’t help you. But you’re asking me to do something I can’t do.”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“You’re a doctor. A doctor is supposed to help people.”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I’m lost for words now. I stare back at the patient, the gears in my brain spinning frantically but to no avail.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“You call yourself a doctor? What kind of doctor are you?”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In our training, we’re taught a formula of what to say to patients in this type of situation. If a total breakdown in communication with a patient occurs (I’m pretty sure when a patient is pressuring the doctor to do something illegal and unethical, this would be grounds for a total breakdown), we’re taught to say something along the lines of “I feel like we’re having a breakdown in the patient-physician relationship, and we cannot continue this way. It might be best if you find another doctor to try to help you.” Right. You try translating that sentence into Mandarin. You try translating that sentence when a large, Mandarin-speaking man is breathing down your neck and asking you what kind of doctor are you?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I try to come up with that sentence, but all my years of spoken Mandarin at the dinner table with my parents, and two years of university level Chinese fail me in that moment.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I’m trying to say that our relationship is breaking down, but what actually comes out of my mouth is this sentence:&nbsp;</p>



<p class="has-palette-color-5-background-color has-background has-large-font-size wp-block-paragraph">我不喜欢你的态度&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">This translates roughly into “I do not like your attitude.” In hindsight, maybe the sentence sounds too much like how a parent might lecture their teenage son when said son refuses to take off his headphones to hear whatever lecture the parent is offering. Or maybe it&#8217;s simpler than that, that maybe nobody likes being told that they have an attitude problem. Or maybe it was just the moment. I’ll never know for sure.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In the next instant, the patient leaps up and charges at me.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Terrified, I bolt out of the room. Luckily, I am already at the door of the exam room and in an instant, I am down the corridor, with the patient hot on my heels. Near the end of the hall, a friend of mine, another doctor in the clinic, comes out of his room to see what the commotion is about, and manages to get between the patient and myself, giving me a moment to flee to the relative safety of the computer room in the back of the clinic. I shut the door behind me.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Outside, I hear the ruckus continue. My friend and one of the receptionists are trying to talk the patient off the ledge while the patient is hurling epithets at me in Mandarin. As I stand there, my entire future career flashes before my eyes. I tell myself this: if he makes it into the room, do not throw the first punch under any circumstances. But if he throws the first punch, then what?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Over the years, I’ve been asked many times what it’s like working almost entirely with Chinese patients in a language that isn’t my native tongue. I’ve even given talks to the Medical Mandarin club at the University of Toronto about how to conduct medical interviews in Mandarin, and I have a few prepared answers for the students. But the full truth is too hard to explain. Only this incident can explain it.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The truth is that I speak Mandarin well for a Chinese-born Canadian but compared to a native speaker, I am only just getting by. I can order food at a restaurant. I can understand television dramas from China and Taiwan. I can even haggle with a salesperson over the price of a speaker system if need be.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In time, my medical Mandarin has improved too. When I started, I only knew a few medical catchphrases that my parents spoke at home. I knew how to say, “Hepatitis B” and “cholesterol” and “blood sugar.” The rest of the terms, I gradually learned from my patients over the years, as we talked about erectile dysfunction, menopause, thyroids, and everything else under the sun.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">All of this is great for my vocabulary, but the truth is that anyone can order dishes off a menu if they practice enough times, and the rote conversations that fill Mandarin textbooks and audio Mandarin lessons can be memorized and rehearsed until one can fool most people into thinking one is proficient. What I’ve learned about languages from medicine, and most specifically, through this incident, is that true mastery of a language should also include being able to nimbly think up an intelligent, appropriate response when one is under emotional pressure.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Thankfully, this scenario doesn&#8217;t occur that often. In the years since, I’ve had to teach myself to be very, very careful when having emotionally charged conversations. And over time, I learned a technique that I could deploy now if necessary. If a situation like this encounter were to recur in the future, I would stick to English to avoid miscommunication and to retain control of the conversation. &nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Fortunately, the office manager managed to talk the patient into calming down and the door to the computer room was not barged through, and there were no fisticuffs. It was, to date, the closest I’ve ever come to physical blows in my adult life. The patient had initially demanded that I come out and apologize, and insisted they would wait outside the office until I reappeared. But eventually, the manager explained to the patient that if he kept on threatening the office, we might just have to call the police.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">As for me, for a few weeks thereafter, I thought twice about walking down the long corridor to the underground parking lot alone, but time passed and eventually this incident moved out of the forefront of my mind and life went on. I never saw the patient or his friend again.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="has-small-font-size wp-block-paragraph">Web Image by <a href="https://unsplash.com/@brandomakesbranding">Brando Makes Branding</a></p>



<h4 class="wp-block-heading"><br>Additional Chapters from A Chinese City Doctor’s Notebook</h4>


<div  class="ultp-post-grid-block wp-block-ultimate-post-post-list-3 ultp-block-288618 "><div class="ultp-block-wrapper" ><div class="ultp-loading"><div class="ultp-loading-spinner" style="width:100%;height:100%"><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div></div></div><div class="ultp-block-items-wrap ultp-block-row ultp-block-column-2 ultp-block-content-middle ultp-layout1"><div class="ultp-block-item ultp-block-media post-id-13105"><div class="ultp-block-content-wrap"><div class="ultp-block-image ultp-block-image-zoomIn"><a href="https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/when-your-body-isnt-yours/" ><img decoding="async"  loading="lazy" alt="When Your Body Isn’t Yours "  src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/ChatGPT-Image-Dec-29-2025-03_55_18-PM-150x150.jpg" /></a></div><div class="ultp-block-content"><h3 class="ultp-block-title "><a href="https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/when-your-body-isnt-yours/" >When Your Body Isn’t Yours </a></h3><div class="ultp-block-meta ultp-block-meta-emptyspace ultp-block-meta-style3"><span class="ultp-block-date ultp-block-meta-element"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" fill="none" viewBox="0 0 24 24">
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01.12.26</span><span class="ultp-post-view ultp-block-meta-element"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" fill="none" viewBox="0 0 24 24">
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