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		<title>Rethinking Mental Illness: Interview with Dr. Gavin Francis</title>
		<link>https://medhum.org/interview/practitioner-interview/rudy_malcom/rethinking-mental-illness-interview-with-dr-gavin-francis/</link>
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		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rudy Malcom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2026 14:08:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://medhum.org/?p=15466</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In his chair at the clinic, Dr. Gavin Francis sees the mind as much less fragile than the rhetoric in our culture suggests.]]></description>
										<content:encoded><![CDATA[
<p class="has-palette-color-5-background-color has-background has-small-font-size wp-block-paragraph"><strong>The Physician on His New Book, <em>The Unfragile Mind</em><br></strong>In 1999, the pharmaceutical company SmithKline Beecham launched a major advertising campaign for its antidepressant Paxil, helping to popularize the diagnosis of “social phobia,” now known as social anxiety disorder. With the slogan “Imagine Being Allergic to People,” severe shyness was reframed as a psychiatric condition.<br><br>“In a remarkably short time this new diagnosis entered the textbooks as if it had a discrete, biological reality, rather than simply the rebranding of a very common trait,” writes Dr. Gavin Francis, a Scottish general practitioner, in his latest book, <em>The Unfragile Mind: Making Sense of Mental Health</em>.<br><br>“As a culture we have a mania for categorising mild to moderate mental and emotional distress as a necessarily clinical problem,” he continues, noting that outside of the West, depression, anxiety, and delusions are often understood in spiritual or religious terms.<br><br>He questions the undue faith that many patients and doctors place in the cast-iron categories of the <em>Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders</em>, the so-called “bible” of psychiatry, arguing for a more dynamic approach grounded in relationships.<br><br>The book chronicles the history of psychiatry from the ancient Egyptians, who linked mental suffering to bowel disorders, through the ancient Greeks and Romans, whose humoral theory dominated Western medicine for nearly two millennia, to the present day. Francis also weaves together colleagues’ wisdom with his own work and experience.<br><br>“Every mental health problem I see in clinic has at its core a tendency that, in a more measured dose, or different context, could contribute to human well-being, rather than detract from it,” he writes. “If we were able to hold the labels more lightly, aware of the human tendencies they oversimplify, would we be able to create a society more accepting of difference? Might it be less stigmatising, but also more hopeful, and more open to recovery?”<br><br>The following interview has been edited for length and clarity.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Why did you write this book?</strong></p>



<figure class="wp-block-image alignright size-large is-resized"><img fetchpriority="high" decoding="async" width="637" height="1024" src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/07/9781800819757-3406105515-637x1024.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-15468" style="width:300px" srcset="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/07/9781800819757-3406105515-637x1024.jpg 637w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/07/9781800819757-3406105515-187x300.jpg 187w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/07/9781800819757-3406105515-768x1235.jpg 768w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/07/9781800819757-3406105515-955x1536.jpg 955w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/07/9781800819757-3406105515.jpg 1000w" sizes="(max-width: 637px) 100vw, 637px" /></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I’m encountering more and more people over the last few years, particularly post-COVID, who have the perception that the categories we use in psychiatry have a kind of fixed, objective, and quite rigid reality. Twenty years ago, when I started as a GP, I might have seen somebody who said, “I feel anxious all the time,” whereas now I’m more likely to meet somebody who’ll say, “Well, I have generalized anxiety disorder.” That’s a shift in the way that society talks about mental illness. At the same time, a lot of people are questioning these categories’ usefulness, so there’s a paradox—a sort of polarization.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I wanted to write a book which explains, from my perspective, A, how the way we think about mental illness has always been shifting and evolving. How we think about mental illness changes with culture, time, and geography. And B, if we can adopt a more flexible and humble approach to our current understanding, that actually offers more hope to patients. Because believing “I have generalized anxiety disorder,” rather than “I feel anxious,” can sometimes be helpful, but it can also box you in and become self-fulfilled. I’m seeing that same shift across the whole spectrum of mental illness and suffering, and the book is a call to question that and reassess where we’re at in the mid-2020s—and a plea for a little bit more kindness and flexibility.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>What would that look like in practice?</strong></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">For example, if somebody comes to me saying, “Well, I have generalized anxiety disorder, so I can’t do this stuff,” part of my work is to help that patient adopt a more hopeful perspective: that there are strategies that they can learn, that there are medications that can help, and that our mind is shaped by many different influences. There may be explanations for their anxiety that have to do with the brain and neurotransmitters and so on. But in most people, there are also more influential factors that have to do with their early childhood experiences and their current social setup, the precarity of their relationships or their economic situation, the quality of their sleep, or the substandard nature of their housing. There are all sorts of other factors that are having a bearing on their anxiety that I would seek to help them explore, rather than them just blanketly saying, “I have generalized anxiety disorder—can you give me the pill for that?” I’m trying to encourage my patient to say, “Yeah, there are pills that can help. But there are all these other factors that we need to think about. And do I really find that label helpful?” For some people, once you start to dig into it, they don’t.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">We can extend that way of thinking to people who’ve had a psychotic episode. Between 10% and 20% of people who have a psychotic episode will never have another. For substantial numbers of people, their psychotic episode is actually a product of all sorts of stressors that are on them at that time. If you can find a way to modify their stressors, put them in a more supported state, and understand what place that episode has in the story of their life, you can then make a story that makes sense of that episode as the product of a uniquely difficult moment in their life. That can help people get over that episode and also, I hope, make it more likely that they don’t have subsequent episodes. Or, if they do, then they’re able to return fully to their normal functioning in between.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>You write, “For the last forty years much Western psychiatry has behaved&#8230; as if our thinking is a simple matter of chemical levels in the brain. The truth is far more complicated.” For example, a 2023 study you cite challenged the serotonin theory of depression. [1] Why do you think that the chemical imbalance narrative has persisted?</strong></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">There’s a number of reasons. That hypothesis came through at a time when our lab technology was starting to be able to measure neurotransmitters, and it offered a good story. If you become depressed, you feel as if you’re lacking something—as if you’re lacking some kind of fuel or energy. That lack translates very easily, in our metaphor-making minds, to the idea that there must be some kind of lack between our brain cells.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">At the same time that this technology was becoming widespread, there was the promotion of a drug which seemed to help: Prozac. There’s no doubt that SSRIs do make a difference. Again and again, they’re shown to be better than placebo. The effect is probably a lot smaller than a lot of the drug companies would tend to promote in their materials, but they do help, and I continue to prescribe them. But what that study you’re referring to was saying was that, even if these drugs help, they don’t help by boosting serotonin levels. We can’t find evidence that substantiates that theory.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The first half of the 20th century was governed by Freudian ideas. Psychiatry in much of the West was dominated by those kinds of psychoanalytic ideas. Then, during the ’50s and ’60s, as we started to develop tricyclic antidepressants and experiment with other kinds of antidepressants—the first were anti-tuberculosis drugs—the idea grew that there might be a chemical solution, which fit very well into our technologically and pharmaceutically focused medical culture. Then, from the late ’90s, there was a huge explosion of the idea that, actually, a lot of it was genetic.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Now, even the idea that neurotransmitters are strictly excitatory or inhibitory is starting to be questioned. Essentially, the whole picture is vastly more complicated than the neurotransmitter hypothesis from the ’90s suggested. I don’t take that as a great failure of the hypothesis; it was an attempt to make sense of something very complicated, and the drugs that spoke to that metaphor are useful and are still among some of the most widely prescribed in the world. But the fact that we no longer think that low mood is purely because of low serotonin is a really positive step forward. It encourages us to embrace more fully the biopsychosocial approach to mental illness. The field of psychology and psychiatry is not known for consensus, but one thing everybody agrees on is that it’s not just biology, it’s not just psychology, and it’s not just sociology—it’s all these influences that have an effect on our mental health.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Are there other common assumptions about mental illness that you think deserve closer scrutiny?</strong></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Every age uses the metaphor of its highest technology to make sense of the mind. In the 19th century, the mind was famously described as an enchanted loom; the mind was thought to be weaving our experience, moment by moment. We’ve now got these very pervasive metaphors of wiring, which I find quite unhelpful because the brain is nothing like a circuit board. It would be like a circuit board made of jelly that can fix itself. So I think the wiring metaphor, although it has its uses, has gone too far because it’s too deterministic. It’s not organic enough.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Half a century ago, Stanford psychologist David Rosenhan wrote, “A psychiatric label has a life and an influence of its own.” To what extent can psychiatric labels help, and to what extent can they hinder?</strong></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">There’s a lot of controversy about the Rosenhan experiment. [2] He’s been accused of being a charlatan and fabricating quite a lot of his data. But I think the value of his reflections still stands. I’ve definitely seen in my clinical practice that people will be treated differently because of a label that has been put in their notes, even though that label might have changed several times. I’ve had patients who’ve had four or five different labels in the course of their career, while they’ve had actually pretty much the same kinds of experiences and distress throughout all of those.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">What I find really helpful in my conversations with patients is the fact that we don’t always have to give a label. If someone is really keen for one, then I’m happy to explore that with them and tell them, “These are the psychiatric categories that are on offer in the current edition of the&nbsp;<em>DSM</em>. Some people find them really useful, but with every new edition of the manual, they change, so they’re not describing something discrete, fixed, or in the natural order of things. They’re a way of describing and approaching distress, so let’s talk about how much they would be helpful for you.”</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Now, in the U.S., I understand that labels can be essential because of insurance-based medical payments. In a U.K. context, a label may not be as useful because our psychiatric services are organized differently. I gently explore with each patient how much for them it’s going to be transformative. If it’s going to help ease their suffering and get them the treatments that they want, then I embrace it and help them get the one that fits best. But if it’s not going to be transformative in terms of how they can access care, then I tend to try to avoid giving a label because that can allow a level of optimism and dynamism about their state of mind. It more genuinely reflects the possibility of change and adaptation, rather than risking somebody changing the way they think of themselves.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">As human beings, we’ve got such a huge tendency to put shame on one another. What labels seem to do in our current moment is absolve people of that shame in a really helpful way. I’ve had patients say to me, for example, that until they got their diagnosis of ADHD, they felt so ashamed of not being able to focus properly at work, and what that label did was offer a kind of absolution from that shame because it said, “There is this category of being that is separate from you and which seems to be affecting you, but it’s not your fault.” That can be wonderfully liberating. In those kinds of situations, I’m often keen to embrace the label if it’s going to help the patient cast off their shame. But I’m also questioning: Why have we got that shame? Isn’t it a pity that people often feel that they need to embrace a medical diagnostic label in order to rid themselves of that shame?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>What strengths do primary care physicians bring to mental healthcare compared to someone more specialized?</strong></p>



<figure class="wp-block-image alignright size-full is-resized"><img decoding="async" width="591" height="600" src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/07/l7lojrgravbmvnhm9ieja68bau._SY600_-242535482.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-15474" style="width:300px" srcset="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/07/l7lojrgravbmvnhm9ieja68bau._SY600_-242535482.jpg 591w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/07/l7lojrgravbmvnhm9ieja68bau._SY600_-242535482-296x300.jpg 296w" sizes="(max-width: 591px) 100vw, 591px" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Dr. Gavin Francis</figcaption></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">One great advantage of somebody in my kind of role is that I’m embedded in the community. I often know the whole family, and I’m seeing people for all kinds of other problems which have a bearing on their mental health. I’ve become more aware of the connections between families and individuals; a specialist only sees the one individual with a particularly distressing problem—for longer appointments, granted, but removed from that context.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">There’s a wonderful GP writer in the U.K. called Iona Heath, who has written a lot about the fact that it’s in the primary care consulting room where suffering is either given a label and understood within a medical model, or not. Some people see primary care physicians as essentially holding a line, or acting as some kind of gatekeeper, between the huge mass of human experiences that are out there and which ones become medicalized. A lot of people will come and see me about something fairly banal—almost to try me out, to try and figure out whether I’m going to be kind, compassionate, friendly, or approachable. Once they’ve tried me with a symptom that they’re not too fussed about, then they’ll risk sharing the one that they’re really worried about.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">As a primary care physician, I feel I have a very privileged role: You’re not part of the family, but you’re not part of the establishment—you’re somewhere between the two. I’m often the first port of call for people hoping to make sense of their experience.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>One line from your book that struck me: You write that today’s&nbsp;</strong><strong><em>DSM</em></strong><strong>&nbsp;categories will one day “seem as overconfident as the old phrenology charts.” How literal or hyperbolic do you mean that comparison to be?</strong></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Phrenology was debunked about 130 years ago. By the late 19th century, it was already starting to lose its traction because good thinkers were realizing it was a load of rubbish. If I could fast forward to 2176 and ask the doctors of that time what they’ll make of the&nbsp;<em>DSM-5</em>, I don’t think they would see it as phrenology, but they would certainly see it as utterly obsolete and unhelpful to them because it’s a cultural document of the West in the early 2000s. We can’t imagine what Western culture is going to look like in 2176. I’d argue that it’s quite likely that it will be very different from our current culture, that our neuroscience and genetics will have progressed in huge leaps and bounds, and that the organization of our society—while it may not have progressed—will have changed utterly. The&nbsp;<em>DSM-5</em>&nbsp;will be of purely historical interest. When I was born in the ’70s, they were using the&nbsp;<em>DSM-II</em>, which is now considered very much a historical document—and that’s within my lifetime. I’m hopeful that the&nbsp;<em>DSM-6</em>, if and when it ever appears, is going to be an improvement on the&nbsp;<em>DSM-5</em>.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>What inspired the book’s title?</strong></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">From my chair in the clinic, I don’t see people’s minds as brittle and fragile. I see people as immensely resourceful, resilient, adaptive, and dynamic. People are incredible; they always amaze me with their ability to get over even the most extraordinary difficulties, suffering, and traumas. In my seat, I see the mind as far more unfragile than a lot of the rhetoric in our culture suggests.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"></p>



<p class="has-palette-color-5-background-color has-background has-small-font-size wp-block-paragraph"><strong><em>The Unfragile Mind: Making Sense of Mental Health</em></strong><br>Gavin Francis<br>Publisher: The Experiment, New York. 2026. 256 pages.<br><br>[1] Moncrieff, J., Cooper, R. E., Stockmann, T., Amendola, S., Hengartner, M. P., &amp; Horowitz, M. A. (2023). The serotonin theory of depression: A systematic umbrella review of the evidence. <em>Molecular Psychiatry, 28</em>, 3243–3256. <br><a href="https://doi.org/10.1038/s41380-022-01661-0">https://doi.org/10.1038/s41380-022-01661-0</a><br><br>[2] In the 1970s, Rosenhan and eight pseudo-patients feigned auditory hallucinations to gain admission to a dozen psychiatric hospitals across the U.S. Once inside, Francis writes, they “declared themselves free of the hallucinated noises, but found it very difficult to be believed, and be discharged” (p. 47).<br><br>Web image created from book cover by Medhum.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"></p>



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		<title>Bibliophobia by Sarah Chihaya</title>
		<link>https://medhum.org/review/book-review/guy_glass/bibliophobia-by-sarah-chihaya/</link>
					<comments>https://medhum.org/review/book-review/guy_glass/bibliophobia-by-sarah-chihaya/#respond</comments>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Guy Glass]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2025 18:11:35 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Book Review]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://medhum.org/?p=11686</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Blending memoir and criticism, Sarah Chihaya’s Bibliophobia explores depression, identity, and the perilous yet healing power of books.]]></description>
										<content:encoded><![CDATA[
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">As <a><em>Bibliophobia</em></a> begins, author Sarah Chihaya has had a “nervous breakdown” and is in a hospital. Although she attempted suicide three times between the ages of 10 to 18, her depression has been more or less under control as an adult. But now she has been warned she will lose her job as a professor of literature if she does not produce an academic book, and the deadline has passed. She cannot take it anymore.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">There is nothing to read on the psych unit but a bulletin board listing the daily activities and some magazines. This makes Chihaya think about her relationship to books, which is a complex one. She muses that “it is every writer’s fear that our books will be the death of us” (p. 11) and humorously writes about how she once had a bookshelf that was so wobbly she worried it would topple over on her. However, the real damage that books inflict may be insidious. The author first began to read as an escape from her unhappy childhood, but she fears she now “love[s] books to a dangerous degree” (p. 20). &nbsp;They have become her life to the extent that she does not know if she “would be anyone at all” (p.12) without them. A feature of her depression is that she has completely lost interest in reading. She half-seriously coins the diagnosis “bibliophobia” to describe her condition. It will take just the right book to cure her, and when she finds it, she begins to read again, and to heal. &nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Over the course of <em>Bibliophobia</em> Chihaya tells us about the books that have been of vital importance to her, many of which she associates with relationships or with stages in her life. Eventually, she reads the DSM about her own psychiatric diagnosis, and she reads books that other people have written about their depression. Working with a therapist, she realizes she needs to move on, and she lets go of her academic career. By the end of <em>Bibliophobia</em> we learn that Chihaya has finally written a book, but it is not the one she was expecting to write. It is <em>Bibliophobia.</em></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><em>Bibliophobia</em> is an unusual hybrid of a book that is part literary criticism part memoir. The author has been influenced by numerous mental health memoirs including recent celebrated works by <a href="https://medhum.org/content/review/book-review/guy_glass/one-friday-in-april-by-donald-antrim/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Donald Antrim</a>, <a href="https://medhum.org/content/review/book-review/guy_glass/the-collected-schizophrenias-by-esme-weijun-wang/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Esmé Weijun Wang</a>, and <a href="https://medhum.org/content/review/book-review/guy_glass/how-to-be-depressed-by-george-scialabba/">George Scialabba</a>.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image alignright size-full is-resized"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="667" height="1000" src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/61brXaWsQ-L._UF10001000_QL80_.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-11692" style="width:320px" srcset="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/61brXaWsQ-L._UF10001000_QL80_.jpg 667w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/61brXaWsQ-L._UF10001000_QL80_-200x300.jpg 200w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/61brXaWsQ-L._UF10001000_QL80_-600x900.jpg 600w" sizes="auto, (max-width: 667px) 100vw, 667px" /></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The first chapter, the subsequent emotional journey of the author, and her conclusions all captured my attention. I must confess that much of the rest of this book interested me less for the simple reason that I had not read any of the books the author discusses in detail. I do not even think we have the same taste in literature. However, this may not prove to be a stumbling block to potential readers who are fans of Toni Morrison, Anne Carson or <em>Anne of Green Gables</em>, or who just love reading about books.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">According to the American Psychiatric Association, stigma around mental health is common in Asian American communities. One praiseworthy attribute of <em>Bibliophilia</em> is how it calls attention to the challenges that these groups experience in accessing care. Chihaya, was raised by a Japanese father and a Japanese Canadian mother who “did not believe in the concept of mental health; everyone was either fine or just complaining” (p. 49). Growing up with the message that depression is “not for the children of immigrants [but] something that happen[s] to white people in independent films” (p. 7) it goes without saying that Chihaya cannot bring her symptoms to her parents’ attention. Filled with shame, it takes her many years until she can no longer ignore them. Fortunately, Chihaya has given us a book filled with insights that one hopes will inspire others to seek help.</p>



<p class="has-palette-color-5-background-color has-background has-small-font-size wp-block-paragraph"><em><strong>Bibliophobia</strong></em><br>Sarah Chihaya<br>Random House, New York, 2025, 214 pages<br><br>References:<br><a href="https://www.psychiatry.org/psychiatrists/diversity/education/asian-american-patients">https://www.psychiatry.org/psychiatrists/diversity/education/asian-american-patients</a><br>Web image from Wikicommons.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"></p>



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		<title>The Tennis Partner by Abraham Verghese</title>
		<link>https://medhum.org/review/book-review/dave_hsu/the-tennis-partner-by-abraham-verghese-a-podcast/</link>
					<comments>https://medhum.org/review/book-review/dave_hsu/the-tennis-partner-by-abraham-verghese-a-podcast/#respond</comments>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Hsu]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2025 14:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Book Review]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Podcast]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[addiction]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Apollo on Call]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[El Paso]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[friendship]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Humanities]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[medicine]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Memoir]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mental health]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[novel]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[podcast]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[recovery]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[secrets]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[tennis]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://medhum.org/?p=10737</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A special podcast episode blending sports and medicine, exploring The Tennis Partner and the complexities of friendship, addiction, and healing.






]]></description>
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<iframe src="https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show/apollooncall/embed/episodes/The-Tennis-Partner-by-Abraham-Verghese-e33ltu8/a-abvodt9" width="100%" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Sports Literati X Apollo On Call</strong>&nbsp;</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image alignright size-full is-resized"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="657" height="1000" src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/71AbBtyzoeL._AC_UF10001000_QL80_.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-10738" style="width:280px" srcset="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/71AbBtyzoeL._AC_UF10001000_QL80_.jpg 657w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/71AbBtyzoeL._AC_UF10001000_QL80_-197x300.jpg 197w" sizes="auto, (max-width: 657px) 100vw, 657px" /></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">This month, on <strong>Apollo On Call</strong>, we have a special collaboration podcast to share with you. My guest co-host for this episode is Dr. Dave Bryant.&nbsp; We usually meet up to podcast about sports books on the <strong><a href="https://www.sportsliterati.com/">Sports Literati</a> </strong>podcast. But this month, I managed to find a sports book that deals with medical humanities that is perfect collaboration material!&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>The Tennis Partner</strong> is a 1998 memoir by Abraham Verghese that talks about his friendship with a troubled former professional tennis player turned medical trainee named David Smith. At the time, Verghese was an infectious disease specialist in El Paso, Texas, where David was a medical student.  Verghese’s marriage was also coming apart at the seams. Into this void enters David. Determined to test his own tennis skills against a former pro, Abraham ends up befriending David over tennis and the two become close friends. As their lives unravel, we get a multi-layered story about friendship, medicine and tennis.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Have a listen and let us know what you think! And if you are interested in more sports booksdiscussions, check us out on the <a href="https://www.sportsliterati.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"><strong>Sports Literati</strong> </a>podcast.&nbsp;</p>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-text-color has-palette-color-12-color has-alpha-channel-opacity has-palette-color-12-background-color has-background is-style-wide" style="margin-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--40);margin-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--40)"/>



<details class="wp-block-details has-palette-color-1-color has-text-color has-link-color has-small-font-size wp-elements-a0d2175cedbdd39763a47bf4575e5b4b is-layout-flow wp-block-details-is-layout-flow" style="font-style:normal;font-weight:700" open><summary>TRANSCRIPT FROM THIS EPISODE</summary>
<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 00:03&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">&#8220;And when the tennis was over, I was empty. I had no crutch, nothing to make me feel special. The world was gray and dull. When she offered me the needle from the very first shot, I was hooked. It just seemed to fill the hole, he said, putting his fist over his chest, Right here.&nbsp;&#8221; from <em>The Tennis Partner</em></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 00:25&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Welcome to <strong>Apollo On Call</strong>, the podcast of <strong>MedHum.org</strong>. I&#8217;m your host. Dr. David Hsu, hope you enjoy the show.&nbsp; </p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 00:38&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">All right. We are back for our monthly <strong>Apollo On Call</strong> episode, and this is a special episode of <strong>Apollo On Call</strong>. I am joined here today by my co-host, Mr. Dave Bryant. Dave and I do a regular podcast called the <strong>Sports Literati</strong> podcast. If you haven&#8217;t heard of this, what we do on the <strong>Sports Literati</strong> is we break down a sports book every month. Actually, it&#8217;s like every two months, right? But we&#8217;re trying to bring the love of reading back for sports fans. And I thought, You know what, we should do a collaboration episode where we bring <strong>Sports Lit</strong> and <strong>MedHum </strong>together, because these are my two pet projects right now. So you know how when you go to the store and they have a designer, and he&#8217;s merging with <strong>Nike</strong>, and they put the big X sign between them, right? This is <strong>Sports Lit </strong>X <strong>Apollo On Call</strong>.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 01:34&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, this is very exciting. I&#8217;m so happy to be here and part of this crossover episode, this is exciting, Dave, and I can&#8217;t wait to dig into the book that we&#8217;ve read this month.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 01:44&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Right, and so the quote that Dave read is from <strong>The Tennis Partner</strong> by Abraham Verghese, which is a seminal work of medical humanities. It is, you know, on a lot of reading lists for medical trainees, and it&#8217;s actually a great sports book. I mean, the title kind of gives it away. It&#8217;s a great tennis book also. So checks off all the boxes. I actually read this book maybe 15 plus years ago when I was training as a doctor, and I kind of forgot about it. But recently, when I got in touch with <strong>MedHum</strong> and we were thinking about what would be a good thing to read, this book popped out. It was sitting on one of the tables at my mom&#8217;s house, and I flipped through it. I&#8217;m like, I kind of really want to read this again, so I made Dave read it. So we&#8217;re ready to go and talk about <strong>The Tennis Partner</strong> by Abraham Verghese.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB </strong>02:36&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Absolutely. And Dave, I personally want to thank you for bringing this book into my life. That&#8217;s what I think about this book.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH </strong>02:44&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Wow, he&#8217;s never thanked me for anything before.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB </strong>02:47&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">First time for everything. I&#8217;m not as well-read as you are you. I mean, you&#8217;ve probably read 1000s of books over the course of your life. I mean, for me, it would probably be in the hundreds at most, but I have to say, probably about 80 to 90% of the way through this book, I was sort of getting through the book, and I sort of talked to my wife about it, and I just told her, I think this might be the best book that I&#8217;ve ever read in my life. I&#8217;ve read some classics, right? You read some of the classics from high school. I’ve read Shakespeare, I&#8217;ve read <strong>Catcher in the Rye</strong>, I’ve read all these classic books, but none of them hit me the way this one hit me. And I know that probably sounds like high praise, and an exaggeration, but I don&#8217;t know, in my current mindset, this is the best book that I&#8217;ve read in a long time.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH </strong>03:47&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Well, normally we don&#8217;t tell the audience if we really liked the book or not. We always leave it to the end. We have this thing on <strong>Sports Lit</strong> where we kind of decide whether this book will belong in the pantheon of great sports books. But I feel like you already cast your vote and it&#8217;s over, like this book is already going to be on the list.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 04:04&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Are we still doing a pantheon even though this is a crossover episode? I feel like it&#8217;s not a pure sports book, so it doesn&#8217;t qualify in that sense.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 04:13&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">We will see, we will see. We&#8217;ll leave that discussion till the end. All right, I&#8217;m going to give everyone the two minute drill of what this book is about. So Abraham Verghese is a well-known physician, medical educator and writer. He, I believe, is currently teaching at <strong>Stanford University</strong>, and because of his writings, he&#8217;s a well-known name in the world of medical humanities. <strong>The Tennis Partner</strong> is one of his earlier books. It was written in the early 1990s and describes a period of time when he had moved to Texas. Specifically, he&#8217;s living in El Paso at the time, and he&#8217;s an internal medicine physician. He&#8217;s a specialist in infectious diseases. He had actually been working with a lot of AIDS patients in the 1980s when AIDS was becoming a thing. So this actually is part of this story too.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">While he&#8217;s in El Paso, he befriends a medical student named David Smith. The only reason he befriends David Smith at the beginning is because he hears in the medical hospital grapevine that David is a former tennis professional. And since Verghese is a tennis nut, and I can relate to that being a tennis nut myself, you know, he makes a point to befriend this guy and say, Let&#8217;s go hit some tennis balls. And he&#8217;s a very good recreational hack tennis player, and so the book talks about him and David getting to know each other on the tennis court, and also him teaching David on the wards and showing him the ropes of the hospital. David, at the time, I think he&#8217;s a third- or fourth-year medical student at the beginning of the story.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The backdrop of this is that his personal life, Abraham&#8217;s personal life, is starting to fall apart. He&#8217;s still living with his wife at the beginning of the story, but there are cracks in their marriage, and they&#8217;re kind of working towards gradually separating as the story goes. So in some ways, David is filling this gap that he needs for companionship while he&#8217;s in this new town.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Trouble is, as the story goes, we&#8217;ve kind of discovered that David has his own demons. He&#8217;s been in medical school for several years. He&#8217;s been in and out and in and out because of a history of substance abuse problems, and so these problems start to escalate as the story goes. And Abraham finds himself getting sucked into David&#8217;s orbit, befriending David, getting to know David&#8217;s girlfriend. And then when things start to unravel in David&#8217;s life. It kind of takes Abraham with him and the whole thing starts to spiral out of control. I won&#8217;t give away the actual ending, because I think people do need to read this, but it is a gut-wrenching finish, and basically is the story of these couple years. It&#8217;s a memoir of Abraham&#8217;s life, of this time period when his marriage was falling apart and he befriended David and this very, very complex relationship that teaches him and us something about medicine, something about life, something about death, something about the value of friendship and, most importantly, the value of tennis.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 07:23&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yes, indeed, tennis is does feel like the connective tissue that binds the story together. It&#8217;s almost like a character in itself. What struck me from your intro there is that although this is one story in one book, it&#8217;s weaving many stories together and this is an incredibly layered book. One thing, you have the story of these two men pursuing their medical careers at different points in their career, right? You have a story of addiction, you have the story of family dynamics, what happens to a family amid a divorce. You know, at its core, this is kind of a bromance, right? You have these two guys who really have not many other people in their lives besides each other, and the tennis is what brought them together. And they&#8217;re basically pals, they&#8217;re basically best friends, essentially, by the end of the book. This is also a period piece in a way, right? This is set in the late 80s, early 90s. It&#8217;s a different time in North America, it&#8217;s in the time of the AIDS epidemic. Dr. Verghese is an infectious diseases specialist, so he&#8217;s sort of right at the forefront. He&#8217;s seeing this happen, he&#8217;s seeing the AIDS epidemic happen right before his eyes. And this is a particular period of time in America. It&#8217;s also the story of El Paso, a border town. One thing that I love is when an author is able to paint a very vivid picture of a place that I don&#8217;t know anything about. And I don&#8217;t know much about El Paso. I&#8217;ve never been to El Paso, but what&#8217;s notable about it is that it straddles the border between the United States and Mexico, and that&#8217;s what makes it an interesting place. It makes it a unique place where you have the American influence and you have the Mexican influence. It has an interesting geography and topography that he goes into. It took me to that place. His writing was so vivid that it took me to that place in time. It is such an incredibly layered story.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 10:02&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Absolutely. It’s so layered, we probably haven&#8217;t even described every layer. There&#8217;s still a few other layers, I think, that you didn&#8217;t touch on.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 10:12&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, here&#8217;s another one. It&#8217;s basically a love letter to tennis. It’s a lifelong passion of the authors, and a lifelong passion of his tennis partner as well. And both of these passions sort of collide together and it makes the book what it is.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 10:35&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, I read this book about 15 years ago, and I don&#8217;t think it registered on me. I didn&#8217;t appreciate it that much. It was this time reading it, the second go around, that I was like, You&#8217;re right. This book, it&#8217;s not even just that it covers these topics and these themes, it&#8217;s just so well-paced, and the language is so right all the time, right? It&#8217;s just such a really smooth read. And then in the final third, it just ratchets up the tension and it turns into <strong>The Wire</strong>, actually. I mean, people who listen to us normally know that we love <strong>The Wire</strong>. And so it takes you to a really dark place at the end, but it is a great story.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 11:23&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, absolutely. And he&#8217;s such a talented writer. I&#8217;m so impressed by Dr. Verghese. First, I&#8217;m impressed by his technical acumen in medicine. I don&#8217;t know, all these little vignettes that he sort of described, like how he sort of looks at patients. It&#8217;s very interesting, as you sort of get into his mind, right? But he’s such a beautiful writer. The story is littered with just these beautiful anecdotes and vignettes. I mean, it&#8217;s clear he has a lot to say. There&#8217;s all these metaphors throughout the book. I mean, I would love to give an example, I can&#8217;t think of one right now.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH </strong>12:03&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Well, you will have a chance in the final quote. You get to read one more quote.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 12:09&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I can find one. I can uncover one. But it&#8217;s just there&#8217;s these beautifully done metaphors throughout the book linking often medical terms with his actual life.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 12:22&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Right, or even linking El Paso, some of the things that are particular to the community, like the indigenous community around that part of the desert with what&#8217;s actually happening in the hospital, or what&#8217;s happening with the illness. There&#8217;s so much to talk about and we don&#8217;t have all day. Let&#8217;s try to cover a few things that we want to hit. Give me something that you want to talk about, about this book.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 12:50&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So, I mean, since it’s called <strong>The Tennis Partner</strong>, I feel like we should talk about the tennis a little bit and but I&#8217;m not thinking about tennis as a sport, I&#8217;m thinking more about tennis as a conduit and as a ritual. And I think the book makes the case that there&#8217;s a big value in having rituals in your life. That it becomes clear to me over the course of the book, that it becomes a ritual for both these guys, it&#8217;s just a part of their week. If they go a couple weeks without it, they feel a little bit off. And I think that&#8217;s what rituals are, right? You&#8217;re so used to doing it, it becomes part of your life. And when you&#8217;re not doing it, something about your life feels off.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 13:45&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I think it&#8217;s more than just a ritual. I think it&#8217;s almost like a haven from life for both of them. Because both of them, when we meet them, are struggling. David is struggling with his personal issues, and we don&#8217;t know that yet, right? We think he&#8217;s just a busy medical student. Abraham on the surface, is a dude with, you know, married, two kids, doctor, all the students look up to him. So they&#8217;re both putting on this veneer that, No, life is great. But actually they&#8217;re both cracking underneath slowly. And so the tennis is a thing that gives them some salvation for an hour each time they play. At the beginning, it&#8217;s really great, the tennis brings them together. When you play tennis, it&#8217;s like you&#8217;re imagining that you&#8217;re &#8211; Verghese does this all the time. He imagined that he&#8217;s John McEnroe. He imagines he&#8217;s Björn Borg. And so it&#8217;s this release. But then, as they play longer, you start to see the real-world things seep into the tennis. Sometimes they get angry at each other, they&#8217;re not always there for each other. At some points, David starts to get into some nasty rows with his girlfriend, and he doesn&#8217;t show up for tennis, and Abraham&#8217;s like, Why is he not here, right? Is she more important than me? There&#8217;s all sorts of these little mental games that they&#8217;re doing to each other around the tennis. So it&#8217;s not even that straightforward that, Okay, we just meet up every time, play, have a good time. It becomes layered with all the typical insecurities and anxieties that human beings have that I guess occur in all friendships, but especially occur in relationships, real deep relationships with people, like your girlfriend doesn&#8217;t call you right away, it makes you edgy. This type of stuff starts to happen to the characters in the story. So it is a conduit to bring these two people together, because without tennis, they wouldn&#8217;t have been brought together. But it also shows how complex human interaction can be, over something as seemingly straightforward as, Hey, meet me after your shift, let&#8217;s go hit some tennis balls.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 15:58&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Those are some great points, actually. It also struck me, now that I was listening to talk in that because they&#8217;re both going through such problems in their own lives, the tennis is like a therapy. It&#8217;s like a therapy session for them as well, almost like an unspoken therapy session where you just whack a few balls, you express yourself. It&#8217;s a way to express yourself non-verbally, doing something that you love.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 16:28&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Right, this is probably the only sports book we&#8217;ve read that talks about sport in this way, right? So sometimes we read sports books, and a lot of them talk about professional sports, which ultimately are sort of a silly endeavor, right? People are getting paid to play child&#8217;s games and then we as fans are watching and with bated breath to all the things that they do, and trying to feel amazement all the time. But this book is actually talking about sports for real. Regular people bringing their regular lives, and how your lives can be enhanced and changed by sport, which is a bit of a different thing, and I think it&#8217;s a cool way to think about it, because I&#8217;ve always felt this way about sports.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 17:12&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, I mean, it doesn&#8217;t have to be played at a professional level to have value, right? That&#8217;s what we&#8217;re seeing here. You don&#8217;t have to be the world&#8217;s greatest tennis player, to play tennis and enjoy tennis. You can play it for fun. That&#8217;s what sports should be, actually, it should be a fun endeavor. Shouldn&#8217;t be a professional high-stress endeavor. If you want to shoot some hoops, go shoot some hoops. If you want to put on some skates and skate around and play some shinny, go do that.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 17:42&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Now, I want to ask you a question. So you&#8217;re not in medicine, but you&#8217;re a dentist. Actually, I didn&#8217;t tell people this in the onset. So if you haven&#8217;t heard Dave talk before, he&#8217;s a dentist. Looking at Abraham&#8217;s relationship with David, there is some boundary issues occurring here. He is supposed to be David&#8217;s teacher and in medicine, and probably in dentistry, we&#8217;re always taught to try to keep a nice boundary between you and your patient, right? You don&#8217;t want to be going out to play tennis with your patient or go out for drinks with your patient, because that can get kind of weird. You also want to keep a boundary as an educator. You don&#8217;t want to take your students out for coffee too many times. Maybe if you become really close friends, you&#8217;re going to be less impartial when you have to grade them or evaluate them or make some tough choices. Abraham, because his love for tennis, throws all this out the window. He&#8217;s like, I gotta hit with a pro, and that&#8217;s more important than all that stuff. That&#8217;s how this starts. Do you feel like he goes way over the line of boundaries, or is what he does in this story still acceptable to you?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 19:01&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">That&#8217;s something I hadn&#8217;t considered, and this is a really good point. It does feel like they need each other at some level, beyond just your typical mentor-mentee relationship. It starts off that way. That&#8217;s what they are, that&#8217;s literally what they are. They&#8217;re not friends. David is a student, and Abraham is his teacher. And, yeah, within that relationship, there should be boundaries, but this relationship evolves, and it clearly evolves over time, to the point where they become, as I said earlier, best friends. And once you get to that point, it&#8217;s hard to go back. It&#8217;s hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube at that point, right? To answer your question, yeah, I think he is overstepping. If you&#8217;re really looking from the viewpoint that he&#8217;s overseeing multiple students, with one of his students, specifically, he&#8217;s spending hours every week hitting a tennis ball with him, and going out for coffee, having meals together, knowing about each other&#8217;s personal lives, he&#8217;s been into his home, they&#8217;ve been to each other&#8217;s homes.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 20:23&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Right, if you describe it in a certain way, it almost sounds a little creepy.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 20:26&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It&#8217;s dicey, it&#8217;s very dicey. If I was one of these other students who&#8217;s not getting this preferential treatment, I&#8217;d feel a bit put off by it. But you know, this relationship was allowed to fester, and it was allowed to continue, and then it became something else.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 20:45&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Well, maybe not even fester. Flourish, for a while.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 20:48&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Flourish, exactly, and it became something else. So it&#8217;s kind of like once it becomes that other thing, at that point, it doesn&#8217;t seem that questionable anymore.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 20:58&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But what happens later in the story, if you remember, is when David gets back into trouble with the drugs, and Abraham finds out. His duty should be to go to the school and say, All right, our student, I found out he&#8217;s on drugs again. We need to do something about it. But actually, what does he do? He tells David, Look, they&#8217;re coming to do a test. Get out of here and sober up before your test and clean your system before you get tested. He&#8217;s actually trying to help his buddy out, right? And so it shows just how far he has gone in terms of over the boundary at that point. But what I will say to your point too, is that the fact that Abraham, at the end of this, is willing to write this story down and share it with everybody, I don&#8217;t know if it absolves him of it, but clearly he must have understood everything that was happening. I mean, if you wrote this down and published it, it&#8217;s possible that the board of directors in your university or something will be like, Okay, you need to be a slap on the wrist for inappropriate behavior with students, or at least get a warning or something for future, right? He was actually very honest about everything that happened, and I thought that was the really interesting thing about this. Because I was like, You know what, if I&#8217;m going to write a memoir, I probably would leave out a lot of this stuff. So he was pretty brutally honest about it, and I do respect him for it. And it kind of shows, I think he knows he&#8217;s over the line. He definitely says words to that effect in the later part of the story.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 22:38&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">For sure. I mean, it&#8217;s a classic moral dilemma, right? Where do your loyalties lie? Is it with your friend or is it with the system that you work for that provides your salary?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 22:51&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I was just asking my wife this question. It was on an unrelated topic. Just last night, I was like, You know when you apply to dental school or medical school, they&#8217;ll give you that scenario, right? During the interview, they&#8217;ll say, You know, you and your buddy have been working together for years, but you notice that he&#8217;s showing up for his shifts drunk. Do you report him to the hospital admin or do you sit down and talk to him? What&#8217;s the correct choice, right? And this exact scenario basically pops up in this book, and Abraham makes his choice and has to live with it.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 23:22&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And I think it all depends on, I mean, to answer the question is, how good of a friend are you? Or how good of a friend is that person to you?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 23:31&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Well, that&#8217;s the real answer.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 23:33&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">What’s the size of the transgression, right?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 23:35&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The official answer is, you salute and report all the news back up to your superior. But the real-world answer is quite a bit more nuanced.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 23:42&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It&#8217;s not realistic to, I don&#8217;t know, when there&#8217;s people involved in relationships, that always gets skewed, and it becomes a gray area.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 23:55&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Right, so the alternative is for Abraham, or anyone in his shoes, to say, I&#8217;m never going to befriend my students. I&#8217;m going to keep a stone wall barrier. And I&#8217;ll admit, I teach medical students, and I&#8217;ve actually played tennis with them because of this book. I&#8217;ve gone to shoot hoops with them because it&#8217;s a nice way to get to know people. But you do become aware that there is this line, and if you go over the line, it could become uncomfortable.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 24:23&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, that&#8217;s true. I just remember my second or third year out of dental school, I was an associate at a practice where the owner of the practice noticed I was getting very friendly with the staff in terms of, like, we were hanging out. And he pulled me aside, and he said, If you want to become the boss one day, you can&#8217;t be friends. You can be friendly, but you can&#8217;t be friends. That&#8217;s just the reality of it, right? And I always remember him, you know, telling that to me and I sort of took it to heart at some level.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 25:00&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Is it true? You’re a boss now, do you feel that way then?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 25:05&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I don&#8217;t feel like I&#8217;m friends with the staff. I&#8217;m friendly with the staff, you know, to have a positive work environment, right? But, no, yeah, I wouldn&#8217;t say I&#8217;m friends with them.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 25:20&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I guess what he means is if you decide at some point you need to change the staff, you need to fire somebody or do something for the sake of the business, it&#8217;s much harder to do that once you&#8217;ve entered the true friendship zone.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 25:34&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, absolutely. Your decision-making becomes skewed, and if you want to let go of someone, it becomes much harder and if you want to talk to someone about changing their habits, sometimes it becomes much harder. It does sort of color the relationship.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 25:51&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But it does seem to be looking at it purely from the vantage point of pragmatism, for the sake of the financial health of the business and the most efficient decision-making possible, not having friends is the way to go. But that seems to be somewhat empty, in a way, like look at our book here. What happens if Abraham does this and says, Okay, there&#8217;s a tennis player, but I&#8217;m gonna resist the urge to go for a hit, and he just won&#8217;t befriend him, right? So this never happens. Are we, as a world, better off without that happening, or are we better off with the way it actually happened?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 26:28&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I mean, I would say we&#8217;re better off with the way it happened. And I would go even further. I would say that if they never found each other, I&#8217;d be worried about both of them. I mean, with David Smith, the former pro, I mean, that&#8217;s self-inherent in the book, right? It&#8217;s obvious in the book. But I think with Abraham, with Dr. Verghese, he went through a lot of trials and tribulations. I&#8217;d be worried about his mental health if he didn&#8217;t have this tennis in his life, right? Because it felt like he was veering down not a great path. He was living in his own apartment away from his family, with basically a cardboard box as his table, with no furniture. I mean, it has all the hallmarks of someone who&#8217;s undergoing a depression.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 27:21&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Right, at least a major midlife crisis.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 27:23&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, absolutely. And he sort of glazes over it in his book, because it&#8217;s not really the main topic of his book, but I felt like if he didn&#8217;t have the tennis and he didn&#8217;t have David Smith in his life, he could have veered down a very dark path.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 27:37&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It&#8217;s possible. I didn&#8217;t feel that at the time I read it, but maybe that&#8217;s because we&#8217;re hearing it from his learned writing voice, right? He sounds like a very put-together guy. And even as he described living with the cardboard box, he described it in such a beautiful language that I was like, Well, this guy is still okay. I never felt that he was that close to falling apart, really. Except that when you take a step back and think about it, yeah, he&#8217;s living in this less than ideal living situation, and he&#8217;s hanging out with a med student every other day, he has no other friends, he has no other family around. Yeah, he&#8217;s pretty unbalanced at this point. So I think you&#8217;re right. And then, moreover, the fact that they went through this experience and then have this story to tell, like, it is a beautiful story. Sometimes people are like, Why do stories exist? Why do we need novels? This book is so good that it&#8217;s kind of like, this is why this story needs to exist.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 28:40&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, absolutely. And the fact that it&#8217;s based on a true story, actually is a true story, only adds to it. I have a question for you, just to change topics for a bit here. The main sort of crux, the main shadow that sort of hangs over the book is a story of addiction, right? And not just any addiction, a drug addiction, an injectable drug addiction that really, it leaves one of the characters very much in a bad place. And part of the topic of the book is that there&#8217;s other medical professionals who go through this addiction. There&#8217;s an addiction center for doctors.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH </strong>29:34&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">They fly David to one of these centers.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 29:35&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, and it made me think, Okay, they&#8217;re making it sound like this is not uncommon, right? A lot of medical careers are very stressful, and it can lead to this kind of thing. I don&#8217;t have much exposure to this. I&#8217;m wondering what your exposure to this is. Have you noticed this? Have you ever encountered this in your career?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH </strong>30:00&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Very limited, also. I&#8217;ve never seen it firsthand, but I think this book is kind of old, right? This book comes from the early 90s. I imagine that when this book came out, this would have been something rather shocking to read about. I didn&#8217;t feel shocked by it. I mean, I&#8217;m re-reading it now, but even when I read it years ago, I wasn&#8217;t shocked by it, even though I haven&#8217;t seen these things happen. I guess it comes up in the media in other forms of discourse about doctors, like medical television dramas, it often happens. I think we kind of know this idea that doctors can also do bad things. Maybe in 1990 that was kind of really new to be talking openly about it. But I think now it&#8217;s not a surprise.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 30:52&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I&#8217;ve always felt like most medical professionals, most doctors, are pretty put-together mentally to be able to get through undergrad and to get through a degree in medicine. It’s hard to do, right? It takes a tremendous amount of willpower and discipline that usually these people are more insulated from this kind of thing than other people, but this book paints a different picture. One thing I actually do remember from the first week of dental school, a lot of it was just orientation, and there was this dentist, or former dentist, who gave a talk, and basically he tells his story about how he became addicted to drugs after becoming a dentist, and it was a pretty heart-wrenching story. He was still a fairly young guy. I don&#8217;t remember if he continued to work as a dentist, but what I remember the most was his voice, and his voice sounded off. He sounded like someone who had been badly damaged by drugs. That&#8217;s what it sounded like to me, and it kind of scared me a little bit. Maybe that was the intent of the of the talk, but I think part of it was just to give us the idea that, okay, there are resources to help you with these kind of issues. But this was the very first week of dental school where we were exposed to this. We never talked about this ever again after that. Well, it was an interesting introduction to dentistry.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 32:30&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I feel like there&#8217;s always that joke, right, like dentists have a suicide rate that is higher than, I don&#8217;t even know if that&#8217;s true.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 32:38&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It’s not.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 32:40&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But between dentists and doctors, I mean, you alluded to it. It&#8217;s a very high-stress training, and the job can eat up your whole life. I feel like this book, as we talk about addiction, I&#8217;ll admit that even my medical training, I didn&#8217;t really understand a lot about addiction. If you pulled me aside two years ago, three years ago, and said, Well, why do people become addicted to fentanyl or to opioids? I would have probably said something like, Well, they took it, they took it multiple times, and after a while, biochemically, their body just decided, chemically, it needs this drug, and then the patient, or the person can&#8217;t stop using it right? And that the use of the drugs somehow chemically rewires them, and now they need it all the time. That was my very primitive understanding of addiction, and it was only in the last couple years that I started seeing all these people talking about how actually most addicts have some underlying trauma, right? There&#8217;s some void in their life, something in their childhood, something has happened, and they&#8217;re disconnected from people, and now the addiction is a thing that springs up to fill this void, and it&#8217;s not a good thing. It fills it temporarily, but they need to fill it again and again, and then you need more hits then. I had never even heard about this. I went to medical school, I did residency, I worked for many years, and I don&#8217;t work in the field of addictions, so I guess I&#8217;m not seeing this all the time. But then actually understanding that, which is our new way of understanding addiction, and then going back and reading the tennis partner, I was like, Okay, this kind of makes sense. Abraham doesn&#8217;t write this explicitly, but he does talk a little bit about David&#8217;s complicated past, or what little he knows about it. I think there&#8217;s a part in the book where I think it&#8217;s David&#8217;s mother passes away, and they actually send them back for the funeral, and it turns into a disaster. He comes back from this even worse than before because it brought back all this pain from his previous family life. So I feel like our understanding of it as a society is starting to change, but probably we don&#8217;t talk about it enough. These days when we see it on the news, it&#8217;s like, Well, the reason people are getting addicted is because the drugs are being allowed into the country, and we need to close the borders and stop the Chinese and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but what actually is happening is there&#8217;s some broken down people, emotionally, mentally and that we&#8217;re not dealing with that, we&#8217;re trying to cut this thing off at the border, right? And I think this book is really good at painting David as a really complicated person. It doesn&#8217;t judge him as being good or bad. He&#8217;s just a guy with a really complicated past. He&#8217;s a great tennis player, he&#8217;s super attractive, apparently, there&#8217;s women falling all over him, and because of that, he can be a jerk to the ladies, but he can also be very childlike and innocent at times. He&#8217;s a very complicated character. I think the book did a really good job of painting the picture of addiction and making it much more nuanced than what we&#8217;re used to seeing.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 35:56&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Absolutely, one thing the book did not explore, which is a little bit of a void in the book, as I see it is, they weren&#8217;t able to explore his backstory. So you talk about this trauma, these holes in your life. We don&#8217;t know what those holes are, it hints at it a little bit, definitely, some stuff happened, we don&#8217;t know what, but it&#8217;s clear he does not have a great relationship with his parents. They&#8217;re halfway across the world in Australia. He&#8217;s about as far away from them as you can get, really.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 36:35&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I mean, it&#8217;s by design, I guess. Most of the time, we don&#8217;t know what the real cause of it is, and since the story is written from Abraham&#8217;s point of view, they never get to that point where David can share this. He would have needed to get better from the addiction, and maybe years down the road, share, and that&#8217;s not happening in this story.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 36:54&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, and maybe he&#8217;s not even aware of it himself, right? There&#8217;s something that&#8217;s going on. He knows that he didn&#8217;t have a great childhood, he knows there were some traumas, he&#8217;s still trying to process it, as many people tend to do. They’re processing it throughout their life, right?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 37:11&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I think that&#8217;s a really interesting thing to think about. But why don&#8217;t we flip it the other way and say, Well, what about Abraham? His life is kind of messed up at the, well, throughout the story. Why is his life messed up? And he is actually Mr. Introspection, he&#8217;s given us everything he can about his life. Do you feel that you understand why his marriage falls apart? Or is it as simple as he&#8217;s working too hard, he&#8217;s never home? I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s it.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 37:35&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Well, he had an affair, right? I think that was the breaking point.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 37:38&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Right, so why did he have an affair?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 37:40&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">That’s the point of no return. That was a symptom of the underlying problems. But his wife took the kids and left and went to India, and that&#8217;s when he had the affair, they left him. But why did they leave him? I mean, it&#8217;s a variety of reasons, he was a bit vague about that part of it.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 38:00&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Right, so maybe even he doesn&#8217;t know, right? These things are possible. A lot of times these things happen, we kind of look back, and try to make sense of our actions. They are sometimes rooted in our past, sometimes they&#8217;re not. But he does tell a bit about his parents’ relationship and his parents, I think, were separated too. I think at one point he alludes to that he&#8217;s doing the same thing that his parents did to him. So he&#8217;s a little bit aware of what&#8217;s going on, at the very least, at this point in time. But it&#8217;s interesting to think about it. These are complicated characters, much more complicated than most fictional characters, actually, because you can really see their inner flaws.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 38:45&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, absolutely. One moment that I want to bring light to, and I see it as almost like you can divide the book into two parts, right? There&#8217;s the first half and the second half. The dividing line is, there&#8217;s a time where they have a drink together, and they discuss, and the truth comes out of them, and they tell each other their truth. They&#8217;ve been basically hiding behind the tennis for a long time. And Abraham comes clean about how he&#8217;s getting a divorce, and him and his wife are going to be separated soon, and he&#8217;s gonna be separated from the rest of his family. They had never discussed that before. And David came clean about his addiction issues and how he had to repeat multiple years in medical school, right? And I felt like after they were able to confide each other their truths, the story sort of took a different turn after that. It became much more of a friendship after that, and they let their guard down a lot more after that. Before that, it was the tennis that really kept them together, but I feel like after that, now they&#8217;re really intertwined from a relationship perspective.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 40:11&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">When you say it that way, it makes me realize there&#8217;s another angle to this book. I guess you mentioned it, the bromance thing, but I think this is really a man&#8217;s story, you know? Because I don&#8217;t know how true this is, but I definitely feel like as an adult, middle-aged guy, it is hard to nurture friendships. And this book shows how difficult it is and how strange it is even for them to start to become friends. There&#8217;s so many rules in place to block friendship, right? And because of the circumstance, because of the tennis, they&#8217;re able to get past that barrier and get to this point where they can openly share stuff. How rare is that in life?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 40:58&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, that&#8217;s true. I mean, I would say once you get past the age of 30, it does become exponentially harder to make friends.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 41:05&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Maybe it&#8217;s not a guy thing. Maybe it&#8217;s true for women too. So maybe it&#8217;s just an adult life thing.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 41:08&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Possibly, I think, Okay, first thing happens once you get in a relationship, and then you get married, that that starts to take up a lot of your time, right? Then next thing, you have kids, maybe one kid, maybe two kids, now, the second kid is here.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 41:25&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Right? And now you&#8217;re rising up in your career, and your mentor told you, just be friendly to people. Don&#8217;t actually be friends with them. So all these people are out, right?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 41:34&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah. So then your friends are basically the friends that you had before, but then you&#8217;re gonna lose some of those friends because you&#8217;re just not going to have the time, or they&#8217;re in a different space, a mind space in life, right? You&#8217;ll tend to relate better to the people who are going through the same thing as you are, so usually people with kids as well. Maybe your kids can have playdates with each other. That&#8217;s how you maintain those friendships.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 41:55&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Okay, so then I&#8217;ll ask you this, because we&#8217;re about the same age, and we&#8217;re both going through adult life, if something like this was happening to you, do you feel like you have people in your life that you could talk to about? Because it takes a long time for Abraham and David to break this veneer for him to admit that he&#8217;s having marital problems and stuff. Do you feel like you have a couple people you can turn to?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 42:16&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">If I was having marital problems, or if I was going through addiction issues?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 42:20&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Or something major crisis, the things that normally we wouldn&#8217;t talk about to casual friends, because people are like, Hey, how&#8217;s it going? It&#8217;s good. Things are good, right?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 42:29&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Things are good, fine. I&#8217;m good. I&#8217;m fine.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 42:32&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Taxes suck, right? But I&#8217;m good.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 42:36&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Well, I don&#8217;t know, can I come talk to you, Dave?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 42:39&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">You definitely can talk to me, but we have to do it around the guise of talking about a sports book every month.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 42:45&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Right, maybe we should record it on a podcast. No. I mean, I feel like I do. There&#8217;s people out there that I can talk to. How many people? Not as many as there used to be probably.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 43:01&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Right, a few, right? I would say there&#8217;s probably a couple.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 43:03&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">There&#8217;s a few, and these are people who I&#8217;ve known probably most of my life. It&#8217;s not going to be someone new in my life.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 43:10&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">That&#8217;s what makes this special, right? This friendship is like Haley&#8217;s comet. It appears very rarely in life that you would meet a new person that you have a big age gap with. Abraham and David are different generations, big age gap, different culture, different standing in the hospital. The hospital is probably, you know, the education system forbids them to actually become friends, so they have to get around all these things. And the thing that lets them bypass all this is they both love to play tennis. So that&#8217;s kind of neat.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 43:45&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I think it is a beautiful story when you put it that way. I am a sucker for a good bromance. I don&#8217;t know what it is, just having that sort of companionship. It’s a little bit off topic, but I was recently watching re-watching a movie that I really enjoy. It&#8217;s called <strong>End of Watch</strong>. I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;ve ever heard of it before. It revolves around a bromance between these two cops who are partners. Jake Gyllenhaal is in it. Michael Pena is in it. They have so much natural chemistry as friends, right? They&#8217;re both married to their wives in the movie, but they have such a connection throughout the movie. And it made me think of that, because I love myself a good bromance, and <strong>Tennis Partner</strong> is as good as any. It&#8217;s as good as that.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 44:37&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">All right. Well, since you&#8217;re sharing about your love of bromance, I will tell you the thing that I&#8217;m a sucker for in stories is mentor-mentee relationships. I don&#8217;t know why, but I think, you know, in the original <strong>Star Wars</strong> movie, my all-time favorite character in <strong>Star Wars</strong> is the old man, Obi-Wan Kenobi. To me, that is the coolest character. This is a grizzled old guy who&#8217;s been through the wars, bad stuff happened to him. He should be really down on his luck, really cynical, but he&#8217;s been charged with the task of teaching Luke something, and I thought that was the coolest thing, because he&#8217;s just paying it forward. And that&#8217;s why this story works for me too, because this is the mentor-mentee, right? Abraham wants David to become better, almost to the point where it&#8217;s getting a little weird, you know, like in the later, Abraham&#8217;s an internal medicine specialist, and he specifically does infectious diseases. He secretly has this thing where he really wants David to go into internal medicine. And when David tells him, I want to do emergency medicine, or I want to do surgery, he gets all offended, right? He&#8217;s like a jilted lover, right? So, he can&#8217;t handle that. But I love that there is this element of the old teaching the new, and trying to push the young guys to become better. I love that.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 46:05&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, Abraham is very honest emotionally throughout this book, to the point where it is a little bit odd and uncomfortable. But I think that you love the mentor-mentee relationship. It goes back to your love of college basketball coaches like Bob Knight. Leaders of young men, teaching them not just about basketball, but about life. Coach Dean Smith.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 46:31&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I love that. I mean, it&#8217;s also just my relationship with my own mentors, right? Your mentors teach you, and then you grew up and you mentor the next generation, and it&#8217;s like this cycle. It&#8217;s great. I love it. I love teaching and learning. So I guess that&#8217;s part of all this.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 46:48&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It&#8217;s great. So, one thing that struck me emotionally in the book was towards the end, when David had his relapse. That part of the book kind of frightened me, kind of scared me. Just the turn that it took in what happened to David, what took hold of him.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 47:13&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">You&#8217;re talking about the last relapse.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 47:14&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, and who he turned into, it freaked me out, basically. And I don&#8217;t know, when something like this happens, it&#8217;s always like you get the idea that you&#8217;re not that far away from something like that. It&#8217;s possible, life is a bit crazy, and one wrong turn, you could end up like that. I don&#8217;t know that that&#8217;s true, necessarily, but it did freak me out in that way a little bit.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 47:43&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Be more specific, you felt like that could happen to any of us, that we could take one wrong turn and suddenly lose everything?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 47:50&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, I mean, because David&#8217;s throughout, I&#8217;m gonna say 80 to 90% of the book, comes across as a very normal human being and a relatively bright guy, right? And, you know, on the surface, I guess it&#8217;s purely on the surface.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 48:12&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I would say maybe for 40% of the book, he maintains that veneer until you start to see the cracks. His relationship with his girlfriend, I think is one of the early signs that this guy&#8217;s a bit of a mess. Then you start to meet some of the people that knew him earlier in medical school, and you start to hear what other people think of him and it&#8217;s not that straightforward. So I think by the end, I&#8217;m not that surprised that this is happening. All the seeds have been there for a long time.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 48:40&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, it&#8217;s supposed to, but I was just struck by how fast it happened and how extreme the changes were. That&#8217;s probably what&#8217;s what scared me the most is how he basically turned into a werewolf, essentially.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 48:54&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, I mean, we&#8217;re joking about it, but it is actually quite frightening, what happens at the end, right? He becomes completely disconnected from all of them.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 49:03&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, we don&#8217;t want to spoil it completely, but yeah.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 49:06&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">People can tell where we&#8217;re going with this.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 49:08&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, absolutely. Any other thoughts about the book, Dave? Any other favorite parts, or any anything interesting to share?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 49:17&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I think we covered all the main things I want to talk about, except this thing of should we put it in the pantheon of greatest sports books of all time?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 49:27&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I mean, for us to do that, it would have to be a sports book.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 49:33&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">All right, so let&#8217;s answer that question.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 49:34&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I think this is loosely a sports book. I wouldn&#8217;t call this a sports book. I think it&#8217;s a bromance that weaves many topics into it, one of them being a regular tennis game, but that&#8217;s not the story. Even though that is in the title, that&#8217;s just a reference to a person. It&#8217;s not necessarily a reference to the sport in particular. To me, this is not a sports book. What do you think?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 50:01&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">All right, I&#8217;m gonna try to convince you that it&#8217;s a sports book. Without the tennis, the relationship doesn&#8217;t happen, right? And it&#8217;s not just a conduit for them meeting the first time. The tennis recurs throughout the book multiple times. They have multiple conversations on the court, there&#8217;s this whole journey of how, I think they even watch tennis together on TV. It is really a vehicle for them to further their relationship over time. It also is a vehicle for them to play out a lot of their feelings towards each other. I think usually when they play, David kind of lets Abraham hang with him, but later in the story, at some points where he&#8217;s feeling volatile, he pounds Abraham. And I think Abraham beats him once, and stuff. So there is some sports action here, but there&#8217;s a lot of subtext to what&#8217;s going on. I think without the tennis, the story doesn&#8217;t even happen. So I will make the case that I think this is actually a sports book. It talks quite a bit about Abraham&#8217;s tennis life, as a recreational tennis player and a tennis fan. Enough that I think it should qualify. I just want to play the pantheon chimes. But I would call this a sports book, and a medical humanities book, and a bromance.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 51:29&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Okay, I mean, I guess you could say &#8211; we talked about this in the beginning &#8211; it is many stories weaved together, and one of those is a book about sports, and that sport being tennis. Okay, you&#8217;ve convinced me, Dave. But now the question, does it deserve a spot?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 51:46&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Well, now that we&#8217;ve said it that way, you called it one of the greatest books you&#8217;ve ever read. I will not call it one of the greatest books I&#8217;ve ever read, but it is a very good book. I would vote for it to go into the pantheon, but I&#8217;ll let the deciding vote sit with you.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 51:58&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Well, I think we obviously know where I sit with this. This is such a slam dunk case for the pantheon.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 52:06&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">A smash, not a slam dunk.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 52:09&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It&#8217;s an overhead smash, easy, no thought involved, this book belongs in the pantheon.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 52:17&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">All right. There we go. Play the music.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 52:29&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">All right, so we&#8217;ve inducted another book into the pantheon. But seriously, whether it&#8217;s a sports book or not is not that important of a distinction. This is just a great read, and I&#8217;m happy that it hits sports so that you and I could talk about it. I&#8217;m happy that it&#8217;s part of medicine and medical education so we can talk about it. From a humanities standpoint, it&#8217;s a great book. We tried not to give away too much of the nitty gritty details, but I think even if we gave some of it away, people should just read it. It&#8217;s such a deep book. There&#8217;s so much going on in it.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 52:58&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, if you&#8217;re listening to this right now, I hope you&#8217;ve either read it or you plan on reading it because it&#8217;s well worth your time and it&#8217;s well worth your energy. It&#8217;s a must read.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 53:10&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I was reading it at the swimming pool one day during my kids swimming lesson, and a guy saw me reading the book, and was like, Is this book good? I&#8217;m like, yeah, it&#8217;s good. He&#8217;s like, I&#8217;ve been meaning to read this. And I was like, Oh, are you a doctor? And he said, no, it&#8217;s just a book that I&#8217;ve been meaning to read, but if you said it&#8217;s good, I&#8217;m definitely going to read it. So, whoever you are out there, I hope you got to it, because this is actually really worth it.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 53:33&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, you know what? It is rare, actually, to see someone else physically reading a book. I take my son to Taekwondo, and occasionally there&#8217;s this other parent there, and he&#8217;s usually reading a different book each time. I&#8217;m always curious to see what he&#8217;s reading.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 53:49&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Do you talk to him? You should talk to him. You should tell him that you are part of a literary podcast, and now you&#8217;re also on a medical humanities podcast. They&#8217;ll be blown away.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 53:57&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Dave, it&#8217;s extremely hard to make friends at this age, extremely hard. There&#8217;s a meme that I always laugh at where you&#8217;re given two choices, talk to the parent of another kid at the playground, or put your hand in the blender. I look at the blender and I think, maybe the blender.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 54:17&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">All right. Well, anyways, maybe you can take us out with a quote. Have you found something to show us one last taste of <strong>The Tennis Partner</strong>?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DB</strong> 54:31&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Within your secrets lies your sickness, Dr. Talbot had said to me when I talked to him long after David&#8217;s death. If David never sustained a lasting recovery, it was because he never let go of his secret. There were some bars that never came down. His secret is still with him. He still walks alone.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DH</strong> 54:53&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Apollo On Call</strong> is produced by <strong>MedHum.org</strong>. Special thanks to my co-host, Mr. Dave Bryant. To hear some more conversations between Dave and I, please check out the <strong>Sports Literati</strong> podcast available on <strong>Spotify</strong> or <strong>Apple</strong>, or wherever you get your podcasts. The theme song <strong>Un Sospiro</strong> performed by my wife, Dr. Justina Sam. For more medical humanities content, please check out <strong>MedHum.org</strong>. Thanks for listening.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="has-small-font-size wp-block-paragraph">Web image by <a href="https://unsplash.com/@mutecevvil" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Ahmed</a></p>
</details>
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		<title>Dr. Osler and His Irascible Patient </title>
		<link>https://medhum.org/article/reflection/jack_coulehan/dr-osler-and-his-irascible-patient/</link>
					<comments>https://medhum.org/article/reflection/jack_coulehan/dr-osler-and-his-irascible-patient/#respond</comments>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack Coulehan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jan 2025 16:20:06 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Reflection]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[clinical judgment]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[death]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[diagnosis]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[differences]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[history]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[house calls]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[literature]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[optimism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Philadelphia]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[physician]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[poet]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[poetry]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[professionalism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[recovery]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[relationship]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://medhum.org/?p=8859</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[
Despite their differences, Whitman trusted Osler's clinical judgment, while Osler admired Whitman's spirit, even if begrudgingly.]]></description>
										<content:encoded><![CDATA[
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">On June 15, 1888, the following notice appeared on page 5 of the <em>New York Times</em> under the headline AGED POET SUFFERS RELAPSE:&nbsp;</p>



<p class="has-palette-color-5-background-color has-background has-medium-font-size wp-block-paragraph">“Prof. William Osler, of the University of Pennsylvania, was summoned by telegraph this afternoon to go to Walt Whitman’s bedside. The aged poet had a relapse, and it was feared that he was dying. When the doctor came away from the little frame house at 328 Mickle Street, Camden, at 8 o’clock tonight, he said the poet was resting easily and about holding his own.”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Osler first visited Whitman in 1884, shortly after moving to Philadelphia to take up his position as Professor of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Maurice Bucke, a Canadian psychiatrist and mutual friend, had asked Osler to look in on Whitman, who was complaining of dizzy spells and fatigue. The professor obligingly ferried across the Delaware River to Camden and made a house call. Osler reported that the poet had no residual neurological deficits from his earlier stroke. He was unimpressed with Whitman’s current symptoms and, in fact, later described him as “a fine figure of a man who had aged beautifully, or more properly speaking, majestically with a large frame and a well-shaped, well-poised head…“ <sup>1</sup><sup>, p. 21</sup>&nbsp;</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image alignright size-full is-resized"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="565" height="775" src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Portret_van_de_dichter_Walt_Whitman_RP-F-00-2448-scaled-e1736003998221.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-8870" style="width:280px" srcset="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Portret_van_de_dichter_Walt_Whitman_RP-F-00-2448-scaled-e1736003998221.jpg 565w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Portret_van_de_dichter_Walt_Whitman_RP-F-00-2448-scaled-e1736003998221-219x300.jpg 219w" sizes="auto, (max-width: 565px) 100vw, 565px" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Walt Whitman</figcaption></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">However, four years later the situation was more serious. On June 14, 1888, Whitman developed slurred speech, prostration, and confusion “such as we know are not uncommon with sclerosis of the arteries of the brain.”<sup>1</sup><sup>, p. </sup><sup>178</sup> When Osler was called in, he recommended general supportive care and issued a cautiously optimistic prognosis (as the <em>Times</em> reported), but evidently did not present his patient with a specific diagnosis or discuss pathophysiology. Whitman recovered over the following weeks, but his health gradually deteriorated over the next several years until his death in 1892.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">During the years Osler served as the poet’s primary care physician, their relationship was respectful, but not ideal. Whitman frequently complained about the great clinician’s rosy bedside manner. “Osler made light of my condition,” the poet wrote. “I don’t like his pooh-poohs. The professional air of the doctor grates on me.” <sup>1</sup><sup>, p.</sup><sup> 50</sup> On another occasion he told his friend Horace Traubel, “I confess I do not wholly like or credit what he (Osler) says. I do not fancy the jaunty way in which he seems inclined to dismiss my troubles.” <sup>2</sup><sup>, July 3, 1888</sup> Evidently, Osler continued to speak in generalities, rather than addressing specific concerns that Whitman raised as he became progressively feebler.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">This situation contrasts with some of the poet’s earlier medical experience. For example, shortly after his stroke in 1873, Whitman consulted Dr. Mathew Grier who must have explained the etiology of the problem. Whitman later wrote to his friend Peter Doyle, “Did I tell you that Dr. Grier here says that my real disease is the brain not being properly furnished and nourished with blood…” <sup>3</sup><sup> </sup>The poet’s other physicians included Drs. Silas Weir Mitchell and his son John Kearsley Mitchell. The famous neurologist and champion of neurasthenia made house calls on Whitman twice in 1878 when the poet reported symptoms of rheumatism and prostration, which he had self-diagnosed as a recurrence of his previous stroke. Mitchell assured him that the stroke, which had resulted from a ruptured blood vessel in the brain, was not responsible for the current symptoms. These, Mitchell claimed, were caused by chronic stress, perhaps exacerbated by anxiety over a public lecture that the poet was just then preparing to give.<sup>3</sup> In other words Mitchell considered the illness a manifestation of neurasthenia. He prescribed travel, mountain air, and vigorous outdoor activity, which was Mitchell’s generic regimen for neurasthenia in males, quite the opposite of his more famous regimen of complete bed rest for female neurasthenics. <sup>3 </sup>The poet took Mitchell’s advice seriously and embarked on a trip to Colorado, after which he professed himself cured.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">While Osler’s optimistic persona must have pleased many patients, it irritated Whitman. He judged his doctor’s cheerfulness to be insincere, or at least questionable. The elderly poet was an eccentric who fiercely valued his independence. While at times he showed a sweet and gentle side, he could also be touchy, irascible, and assertive. As the poet grew progressively frailer during 1888 and 1889, Traubel recorded a series of house calls during which Osler assured him that he would soon recover. “Do not take a gloomy view of Whitman’s case,” Osler told Traubel, “he will come around.” <sup>2</sup><sup>, July 3, 1888</sup> In this short poem, I try to resurrect the poet’s attitude toward his famous doctor:&nbsp;</p>



<p class="has-text-align-center has-palette-color-5-background-color has-background has-medium-font-size wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Walt Whitman Reflects on His Doctor’s&nbsp;Bedside Manner&nbsp;</strong><br><br>As an old rat that must be allowed to die&nbsp;<br>in his own way, I start with a prejudice&nbsp;<br>against doctors. <em>Never mind worrying</em>&nbsp;<br><br><em>about your sickness</em>, he scolds me,&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><em>I’m seeing to all that.</em> The man tinkers&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>with platitudes and conceals his thoughts. &nbsp;<br><br>In his gospel of encouragement&nbsp;<br>I’m supposed to be agreeable and dumb&nbsp;<br>while he puts the best construction&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br>on what’s happening. What does he know&nbsp;<br>about Whitman, the old rat? A shoemaker&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>tells his customer the shoe fits just right&nbsp;<br>but the shoe pinches the fellow wearing it. &nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Whitman was a master of self-promotion. He appeared to encourage members of his inner circle who viewed him as a prophet, as well as a poet. Dr. Maurice Bucke even wrote a book claiming that his friend was one of the few humans who had achieved “cosmic consciousness.” The others included Jesus, Mohamed, and the Buddha. Did Osler fail to understand that his one- size- fits- all approach to physician-patient communication might not be appropriate for a patient with Whitman’s complex and eccentric personality? &nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Although dissatisfied with Osler’s bedside manner, the poet respected his doctor’s clinical abilities. Several months after the medical crisis in 1888, Whitman wrote, “As for Osler: he is a great man—one of the rare men. I should be much surprised if he didn’t soar way, way up—get very famous at his trade—someday. He has the air of something about him—of achievement.”<sup>2</sup><sup>, December 26, 1888</sup><sup> </sup>Indeed, by that time, Osler had already accepted the position of Professor of Medicine at the new Johns Hopkins medical school in Baltimore. &nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Osler was a sensitive, cultivated man, but also a rationalist, who initially looked askance both at Whitman’s exuberant poetry and the cult that had grown up around its author. Although he admired the man, he had no wish to become a disciple. He loved poetry and enjoyed quoting passages from Shakespeare and the Romantic and Victorian poets. Regarding his first impressions of <em>Leaves of Grass</em>, Osler later wrote, “Whether the meat was too strong, or whether it was the style of cooking—‘twas not for my pampered palate.” <sup>1,</sup><sup> p. 22</sup><sup> </sup>He found his new patient’s long, unruly poems and earthy subject matter self-indulgent and lacking in discipline. The boisterous persona reflected in Whitman’s poems jarred Osler’s methodical mind. In the following poem, I imagine the clinician’s response to his early encounters with the Good Grey Poet:&nbsp;</p>



<p class="has-text-align-center has-palette-color-5-background-color has-background has-medium-font-size wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Dr. William Osler Remembers His&nbsp;Call on Walt Whitman&nbsp;</strong><br><br>I took the ferry that day and found him&nbsp;<br>in the front room of a small house&nbsp;<br>on Mickle Street, buried to his chest&nbsp;<br>in papers, magazines, and musty&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>brown bundles. <em>Push yourself a path,</em>&nbsp;<br>he said.<em> I reckon you’re a friend of Bucke’s</em>.&nbsp;<br><br>His famous head had aged majestically—&nbsp;<br>unkempt white beard; smooth, clear cheeks;&nbsp;<br>a fissured, geographic forehead.&nbsp;<br>His voice was pitched a shade too high,&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>but strong like the rest of him. Of symptoms&nbsp;<br>he said but little&#8211;remarkable&nbsp;<br><br>for a man of 65. For a moment&nbsp;<br>I felt that sweet aromatic presence&nbsp;<br>his disciples spoke of&#8211;for me, though,&nbsp;<br>the edge of chaos. I sometimes wish&nbsp;<br>the man had made a difference in my life,&nbsp;<br>opened me up, but how could I forego&nbsp;<br><br>my restraint? Or professional kindness?&nbsp;<br>For a man like me, a man of substance,&nbsp;<br>what could be worse than falling in love&nbsp;<br>with Whitman? I listened to the music&nbsp;<br>of his tongue, but could never cross the line&nbsp;<br>that reads, <em>Who enters here, abandons discipline.</em>&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yet, in his later years, Osler grew to respect his one-time patient’s poetry, as well as his charismatic personality. In fact, at the time of his death from pneumonia in 1919, he was in the process of writing an appreciative reminiscence of his encounters with Whitman.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The uneasy, but respectful, relationship between these giants in their respective fields provides interesting material for reflection. If the poet was so dissatisfied with Osler, why didn’t he go back to Weir Mitchell or his son, who were more easy-going and communicative? Mitchell’s reputation as a clinician easily equaled Osler’s, and he was a poet as well. Could it be that Whitman benefited in some way from Osler’s staunch optimism, or had developed deep trust in Osler’s judgment, despite the constant complaints he issued to Traubel and others? Alternatively, why didn’t Osler modify his paternalistic approach, since it seemed clear that Whitman preferred to play a more active role in the relationship? And those time-consuming house calls that required taking a ferry across the river! Why not recommend a more pliable colleague?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>References&nbsp;</strong></p>



<ol start="1" class="wp-block-list">
<li>Philip Leon, <em>Walt Whitman &amp; Sir William Osler</em>, ECW Press, Toronto, 1995.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<ol start="2" class="wp-block-list">
<li>Horace Traubel, <em>With Walt Whitman in Camden</em>, vol. 2, at <a href="http://whitmanarchive.org/criticism/disciples/traubel" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">http://whitmanarchive.org/criticism/disciples/traubel&nbsp;</a>(accessed December 30, 2024)&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<ol start="3" class="wp-block-list">
<li>Feinberg CE. Walt Whitman and his doctors. <em>Arch Intern Med</em> 1964; 114: 834-842.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Photo of Sir William Osler and Walt Whitman from WikiCommons.</p>
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		<title>Knife by Salman Rushdie</title>
		<link>https://medhum.org/review/book-review/howard_trachtman/knife-by-salman-rushdie/</link>
					<comments>https://medhum.org/review/book-review/howard_trachtman/knife-by-salman-rushdie/#respond</comments>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Howard Trachtman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Sep 2024 20:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Book Review]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Video]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[anxiety]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[award]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[booker]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[death]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[fear]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[healing]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[hope]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[iatrogenic]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[injury]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Movement]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[novel]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[perseverance]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Prize]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[recovery]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[rehabilitation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[resilience]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[strength]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[theater]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[trauma]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[uncertainty]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://medhum.org/?p=7541</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[
Recovery from trauma isn’t linear. Doctors think in long-term progress, while patients crave quick fixes, hoping for the moment when they’re finally told they’re "fine."]]></description>
										<content:encoded><![CDATA[
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Salman Rushdie’s life story is a well-known tale. It has become an allegory of sorts in these tense times of global religious fanaticism. To briefly summarize, Rushdie achieved sudden world-wide fame in his thirties with the publication of <em>Midnight’s Children</em>, a winner of the Booker award in 1981. It is now considered the best novel of all the winners over the 40 years that the prize has been awarded (<a href="https://thebookerprizes.com/the-best-of-the-booker" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">the Best of the Booker web page</a>). He then authored a fourth book, <em>Satanic Verses</em>, in 1988 that triggered the ire of Muslims around the world who accused Rushdie of defaming the prophet Mohammed and denigrating their faith. A fatwa was proclaimed on Rushdie by Ayatollah Khomeini and the imams in Iran forcing him to live in semi-hiding with 24-hour police protection for the next 20 years in London. In 2006, after nearly 20 years of quiet, he moved to New York and decided to gradually come out of seclusion. Life was good to him and, in 2021, he was married for the fifth time, to the woman of his dreams, the poet Rachel Eliza Griffiths.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">For nearly two decades after the fatwa was issued, his literary career flourished, and he became a visible spokesperson for freedom of artistic expression. As president of PEN, Rushdie promoted initiatives to protect and promote the careers of writers living in fear under repressive political regimes. In August 2022, he was invited to speak on this topic at the Chatauqua Institution, an adult education and social movement. On a sunny summer morning, as he sat on the stage of the amphitheater to begin a public conversation with his interlocutor at Chatauqua, he noticed a man dressed in black suddenly rise up from the middle of the audience and charge the platform. There was no security at Chatauqua that day or any other day because the violent world had never intruded into the bucolic space of the institution during its entire 148 year history. Rushdie found himself rooted to the spot, frozen and unprepared to defend himself as the attacker stabbed him seventeen times – in his eye, his face, his neck, his chest, his abdomen, his hand. Heroic people charged the stage and subdued the assailant. Miraculously, Rushdie survived and he was helicoptered to the nearest trauma center for emergency treatment. <em>Knife</em> is a meditation on the event, the ordeal of rehabilitation that Rushdie had to endure, and his reaction now that he is healed, and his life is restored.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><em>Knife</em> is a visceral book that is grounded in the harsh reality of crazed, religious zealots and painful, tedious rehabilitation. It is different from the magical prose that characterizes much of Rushdie’s writing. The events are described in excruciating detail. One can feel the hurt and sense the worry etched into the pages. It is testament to the many doctors and nurses and therapists who took part in his bodily reconstruction and long convalescence. Most of all it is an inspiring testament to his wife who had the fortitude to be at his bedside throughout the entire ordeal . Rushdie gives her most of the credit for his stamina, the tenacity and resilience that he displayed during the long months after the attack. He substitutes an imaginary dialogue with his attacker in lieu of a face-to-face encounter in prison to express his contempt for his religious intolerance. Rushdie and his wife summon the courage to revisit the Chautauqua stage one year after the attack and achieve some degree of closure on the event.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-pullquote has-palette-color-5-background-color has-background"><blockquote><p>Differences in fame and access to expertise do not ultimately carry the day. Instead, it is how we as individuals, regardless of our wealth or social status, are able to tap our inner strength and utilize the help and support of our loved ones.</p></blockquote></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">There is much humanity and wisdom in these pages, lessons on how to confront and overcome adversity. One might question what we, mere mortals, can learn from a singular person like Rushdie who was blessed with such an abundance of human and professional resources to draw on as he recuperated from his injuries. However, differences in fame and access to expertise do not ultimately carry the day. Instead, it is how we as individuals, regardless of our wealth or social status, are able to tap our inner strength and utilize the help and support of our loved ones. The task for us all is to draw on our cognitive and psychological reserves and convert life-threatening tragedies into surmountable setbacks. If, like Rushdie, we succeed, then we will have reached a more mature and meaningful embrace of life in all its beauty and complexity. Rushdie’s story played out in the international limelight. The narrative also unfolds every day on countless hospital floors and rehabilitation units the world over as people strive to overcome injury and illness in their own private world. Rushdie’s template is universal.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image alignright size-full is-resized" id="box-shadow"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="667" height="1000" src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/71zIv7pCGHL._AC_UF10001000_QL80_.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-7543" style="box-shadow:var(--wp--preset--shadow--natural);width:240px" srcset="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/71zIv7pCGHL._AC_UF10001000_QL80_.jpg 667w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/71zIv7pCGHL._AC_UF10001000_QL80_-200x300.jpg 200w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/71zIv7pCGHL._AC_UF10001000_QL80_-600x900.jpg 600w" sizes="auto, (max-width: 667px) 100vw, 667px" /></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But for readers of the Medhum website, I suggest that there is an unspoken but instructive message lurking in Rushdie’s story, specifically for health care providers, doctors and nurses both. There were unexpected turns of events during Rushdie’s recovery. It was not an uninterrupted march from near death to healing. He experienced disabling complications from medications that were prescribed for rational clinical reasons, iatrogenic problems. In one case, severe urinary retention requiring repeated painful bladder catheterization, it was only through the astute observation of one of the clinicians that the causative medication was stopped and the problem spontaneously resolved. In another, he experienced symptomatic hypotension, a disabling side effect of one of the drugs prescribed for him. There was a cancer scare when an imaging study performed to assess his urological problems. suggested he might have a lesion in his prostate. He experienced excruciating pain when his eyelids needed to be sutured together to protect his injured eye. In each case, Rushdie was reassured that things were proceedings according to plan and that things should improve with time. Follow up tests were done to monitor the prostate anomaly and confirm improvement in his symptoms but the discomfort and unease lingered in his body and his mind. The anxiety that the problems might not resolve was ever present in Rushdie’s consciousness.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Doctors know that recovery from injury or illness is a time consuming process that rarely occurs overnight. They are right to encourage their patients to take the long view of their health problems, to reassure them the treatment is usually a continuing proposition. But even for a highly intelligent patient like Rushdie, the doctor’s confidence in how things were going could never completely allay the fear that his broken body would not heal, and his health would not be restored to what it had been pre-knife attack. Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky won the Nobel Prize in Economics in 2002 for groundbreaking studies that explored how people assess loss and gain and make financial decisions. Kahneman expanded on their studies in behavioral economics and proposed that rational thought utilizes two operational modes. System 1 is rapid and instinctive in contrast to system 2 which is slower, more deliberative, and more reasonable. Channeling this work by Kahneman, there may be two systems operating during recovery from bodily injury. Doctors may be employing an analog System 2 method of thought as the disease is steadily halted, reversed, and repaired. Patients, however, live through illness in a binary System 1 approach of thought: sick or back to normal. We physicians would do well to remember that the only words our patients really want to hear from us when they come to us for care are, “You are now fine. We can stop the medications and stop the follow up. You are back to normal.”</p>



<figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
<iframe loading="lazy" title="Salman Rushdie details his attack, his memoir &quot;Knife&quot; and finding love later in life | NPR" width="1310" height="737" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/gGoiV5BtB20?feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>
</div></figure>



<p class="has-palette-color-5-background-color has-background has-small-font-size wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Knife</strong><br>Salman Rushdie<br>Knopf 2024, 209 pages</p>
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		<title>Interview with Poet B. Fulton Jennes</title>
		<link>https://medhum.org/interview/poet-interview/cortney_davis/interview-with-poet-b-fulton-jennes/</link>
					<comments>https://medhum.org/interview/poet-interview/cortney_davis/interview-with-poet-b-fulton-jennes/#respond</comments>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cortney Davis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 May 2024 22:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Poet Interview]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Video]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[addiction]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[alcohol]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Art]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[award]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[compassion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[depression]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[healing]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mother]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[museum]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[music]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[poetry]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[PTSD]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[recovery]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[trauma]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://medhum.org/?p=5342</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Through raw, honest poetry, B. Fulton Jennes illuminates the complexities of addiction and depression, offering hope amidst the darkest struggles.]]></description>
										<content:encoded><![CDATA[
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">When I first read <em>Blinded Birds</em>, an award-winning collection of poetry by B. Fulton Jennes, I entered a world I assumed I knew. After a long career in nursing, I thought I was familiar with the wages of depression and addiction. But the poems in <em>Blinded Birds </em>took me deep into new territory, into multigenerational suffering and almost miraculous recovery. I was eager to talk with Jennes to find out more about these brave poems and her willingness to expose her family&#8217;s long hidden afflictions.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image alignright size-large is-resized box-shadow"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="663" height="1024" src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Blinded-Birds-cover-1-663x1024.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-1406" style="width:240px" srcset="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Blinded-Birds-cover-1-663x1024.jpg 663w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Blinded-Birds-cover-1-194x300.jpg 194w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Blinded-Birds-cover-1-768x1187.jpg 768w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Blinded-Birds-cover-1.jpg 880w" sizes="auto, (max-width: 663px) 100vw, 663px" /></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Cortney Davis</strong>: The poems in <em>Blinded Birds </em>are startling and sometimes difficult to read. Can you talk about the process of writing such personal poems&#8211;how you considered the idea of &#8220;truth&#8221; in poetry as you were writing?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>B. Fulton Jennes</strong>: The poems in <em>Blinded Birds</em> are 100% autobiographical. One of the book’s reviewers called them “brutally honest,” and many people have told me they needed to stop reading to compose themselves before continuing (I guess that’s a compliment!). The intent was not to shock but, rather, to <em>heal</em>. For me, the only path to that healing was complete, unfiltered honesty. As we say in the program, you’re only as sick as your secrets, and I’d been holding in those poisonous secrets for far too long. Poet Anne Carson might insist that art is not therapy, but it was for me in writing these poems.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>CD</strong>:&nbsp; <em>Blinded Birds </em>is your first poetry collection, but you&#8217;ve been writing award winning poems for some time. When did you begin your journey as a poet?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>BFJ</strong>: When I was a child my grandmother used to read to me from my father’s copy of <em>A Child’s Garden of Verse</em>; I loved the rhymes and the musicality of the poems. Also, my mom wanted to be a writer when she was in high school. She used to write poems with me in the morning before I went to school. Of course, I took all the credit for them with my teacher!&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>CD</strong>:&nbsp; And now you&#8217;re writing poems that are like explosions on the page, visceral and stripped-bare. How did you come to write these particular poems? Was there a triggering event?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>BFJ</strong>: It was after we discovered my daughter Mallory’s heroin addiction. Mal was home from college and preparing to begin overseas graduate studies when we found her overdosed and, essentially, dead on her bedroom floor. Fortunately, I was able to resuscitate her until the EMTs arrived, so she lived and entered a residential treatment program. But processing all that happened in the months that followed&#8211;including Mallory’s subsequent relapse and years of active addiction&#8211;threw both my husband and me into a state of perpetual PTSD. It also evoked memories of my own addiction to alcohol, including during Mal’s infancy (I relapsed when her pediatrician advised me to drink beer because my milk production insufficient and she was losing weight. I’m an addict&#8211;who was I to argue?). Additionally, she and I have both been treated for depression since childhood (I was on Valium when I was 12, for God’s sake&#8211;and Mallory’s depression manifested much earlier), and my mother suffered from horrible depression, most likely untreated bipolar disorder, throughout my childhood. So all of those factors congealed during this period&#8211;the memories, the fears, the regrets, the anger, the sorrow. The only way I could manage was to write my way through.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>CD</strong>:&nbsp; Writing the poems must have been an extraordinary experience. Your poems about saving Mallory&#8217;s life (&#8220;Eating Dinner, After You Died,&#8221; &#8220;The Waitings&#8221;) begin in despair and end in hope. You might have kept these poems to yourself but chose to offer them publically in a collection. How did the publication of this book affect you emotionally and how have the poems affected your family?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>BFJ</strong>:&nbsp; Let’s start with my family, first and foremost my daughter since she is a central character in the collection’s story arc. By the time I was ready to submit <em>Blinded Birds</em> to publishers, Mallory was in relatively long-term recovery&#8211;in fact, she had gone to graduate school to become a certified addictions counselor. I would never have published the poems without her permission, and she readily gave it, realizing not only the personal importance of telling our story but also the potential of connecting with others and offering them hope as a result since the final poems in the collection celebrate our joint recovery. Sadly, my mother&#8211;the third central character in the book&#8211;never achieved relief from her depression before she died. She was of a generation that clung to the belief that depression is a character flaw, not a treatable medical condition&#8211;much as addiction is still shrouded in stigma today. My husband was behind the book 100%. The rest of the family, including many who never realized our ongoing struggles with mental illness, were initially shocked but ultimately supportive. We got a lot of, “I’m so sorry&#8211;I never knew,” which just shows how well we hid the truth for so long.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<figure class="wp-block-pullquote"><blockquote><p>I can feel the healing they’ve received from knowing they’re not alone. It’s therapeutic for all of us&#8211;the giver and the receivers of hope.&nbsp;</p></blockquote></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">How did the book’s publication affect me emotionally? I think both Mallory and I feel really empowered by having the truth out in the open for others to learn from and, perhaps, glean hope from. Every time I finish a reading, people from the audience approach me to share their stories, especially ones about their own children who suffered, or suffer, from addiction. I can feel the healing they’ve received from knowing they’re not alone. It’s therapeutic for all of us&#8211;the giver and the receivers of hope.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>CD</strong>: Your poems seem to be &#8220;spot on&#8221; in examining the cultural and societal issues so many families struggle with today. It has been said that the personal is universal, and your very personal poems speak directly to these issues. Was that something you considered when writing, that your work might help others understand the genesis and effects of addiction?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>BFJ</strong>:&nbsp; It’s only in studying how others react to the poems that I’ve developed a keener awareness of society’s misevaluation of addiction and addicts. However, while drafting the poems, I definitely took a “genetics as culprit” approach. The three of us recently had genetic testing done, which revealed that both Mallory and I have the A1 allele. In study after study, that mutation on the brain’s dopamine receptors has been very closely linked to early-onset depression, severe alcoholism, ADHD, intractable PTSD, and a heightened risk for addiction to opioids. There are two poems at the beginning of the book that highlight the fury I feel at being a victim of genetics: “Blinded Birds” and “To an Allele.” And I wish I could have shared those findings with my mother who no doubt blamed herself rather than her genetic inheritance for her lifelong depression. (Her father was severely alcoholic and despondent; two of her siblings committed suicide.)&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>CD</strong>: When you understood the genetic component of depression and addiction did you feel relieved somehow of guilt or blame? I very much admire your poem &#8220;Triple Helix&#8221; that helps you &#8220;pry apart the DNA / that twists our fates together . . . .&#8221;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>BFJ</strong>:&nbsp; Vindicated, perhaps, but not guiltless. There’s another poem in the book titled “Every Bad Thing That Ever Happened to Me Happened When I Was Drunk,” and that’s pretty much the truth of it. And not just the bad things that happened to <em>me</em>, but the bad things I imposed upon others, most notably my daughter. I relapsed twice during her childhood: once when she was an infant (the poem “Alky Mommy” speaks to that) and again when she was a teen&#8211;the two most impressionable periods in a child’s development. During those times, I was unavailable to Mallory on many levels. That’s why there’s so much regret and sorrow mixed with anger in discovering the genetic connection to addiction&#8211;my genes might have opened the door for me, but I’m the one who wrecked the room.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>CD</strong>: Yet you did not leave the room in shambles. The last several poems in <em>Blinded Birds </em>speak to healing and resolution. In the book&#8217;s last poem, &#8220;Hovenweep,&#8221; you write &#8220;And then you, a damaged daughter, saved me. / And then I, a mother damned, saved you.&#8221; Do you have a favorite poem among those that bring the book to a close with hope?&nbsp;<em>&nbsp;</em>&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>BFJ</strong>: Yes! My favorite is “Return,” the second-to-last poem in the collection. I still connect to it, feel its power, whenever I read it. In it, I metaphorically compare recovery to a tree reawakening after a long winter, a long night. Isn’t that exactly what it feels like, the first time you wake up and don’t ache for a drink or a fix? You feel alive again. It’s remarkable. Like being reborn.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>CD</strong>: You often give well attended readings. Is it difficult for you to share such emotional and revealing poems?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>BFJ</strong>: Not at all. As I’ve mentioned, I can feel the healing that’s happening in the room&#8211;both for me and for those in attendance. Sure, there are some who can’t scurry away quickly enough after the reading (!), but I tell myself that they’re the ones who most needed to hear the poems.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>CD</strong>: Yes, sometimes we experience something&#8211;a poem that cuts too close perhaps&#8211;and it&#8217;s often only later that we realize how we&#8217;ve been touched, been changed. Has writing <em>Blinded Birds </em>changed you or your family in any way?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>BFJ</strong>: Personally, I’ve gained confidence on many levels since the book’s publication&#8211;as a poet, as a public speaker, as a truth-teller and giver of hope. I’m unafraid&#8211;unlike all those years I felt hidden and hurt by the truth. I think everyone in the family feels pretty much the same.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>CD</strong>: Once in a lecture years ago at NYU the poet Yehuda Amichai said that in war, poems can&#8217;t save us. Do you think poetry can save us? Can it bring about changes in our society?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>BFJ</strong>: It certainly has saved me on more than one occasion. So on a personal level, absolutely: poetry saves. But I see the powerful poems being written about the atrocities occurring in so many places today, and while those poems have impacted my sense of urgency and compassion, I don’t see that power playing out on a political level. I think the effect of art&#8211;whether poetry, song, or visual art&#8211;is limited to moving a pre-disposed audience. Sadly, they “preach to the choir”&#8211;albeit powerful and affective preaching.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>CD</strong>: And now that Blinded Birds has found wide readership, tell me about your latest book. You’ve written again about your family, but this time about a special and specific person.&nbsp;</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image alignright size-large is-resized box-shadow"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="893" height="1024" src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-07-19-at-14.40.27-893x1024.png" alt="" class="wp-image-6736" style="width:240px" srcset="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-07-19-at-14.40.27-893x1024.png 893w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-07-19-at-14.40.27-262x300.png 262w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-07-19-at-14.40.27-768x880.png 768w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-07-19-at-14.40.27.png 944w" sizes="auto, (max-width: 893px) 100vw, 893px" /></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>BFJ: </strong>Yes&#8211;<em>FLOWN </em>(Porkbelly Press, 2024)<em> </em>is an elegy-in-verse for my late sister, who died of metastatic breast cancer in July of 2022. It&#8217;s a chapbook of very short poems, written during the final months of Harriet&#8217;s illness and the days and weeks just after her passing. It&#8217;s raw, very raw. I still relive the anguish of those days when I read the poems.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>CD</strong>: how was writing this book different from—or similar to—writing Blinded Birds?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>BFJ: </strong>In terms of differences, the biggest one was that <em>FLOWN </em>was written while the events were transpiring, rather than in retrospect. It was a period of deep recollection and reflection, sussing&#8211;intuiting really&#8211;the metaphoric connections between Harriet&#8217;s illness (which we knew from the first diagnosis was terminal) and events from our childhood. There were four years between us, so I learned a great deal from her when we were young, just as she taught me so much about life and about the process of dying with her illness and eventual passing.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Both books are rich in symbolism, which I guess was the greatest similarity in writing them. The title and title poem of <em>Blinded Birds</em> reference the old Flemish tradition of <em>vinkensport</em>, in which chaffinches being trained to compete in contests that require them to repeat their distinctive song the most times per hour were once blinded with hot needles to minimize distraction during competition. Cruel, right? I used that analogy to illustrate the cruelty of genetics in predetermining our propensity for addiction&#8211;and, yes, of any god who would create genetic mutations in the first place and use them for his &#8220;sport.&#8221; That metaphor echoes through the poems, just as the symbols of holes (including graves) and birds make repeated appearances throughout <em>FLOWN</em>. &nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>CD</strong>:&nbsp; And one question about your poetic process. Do you have any special inspirations or habits that help you create? Sharon Olds once said that she finds inspiration in walking across water. Some poets have elaborate pre-writing rituals, or must have silence, or can only write at a table at Starbucks.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>BFJ</strong>:&nbsp; For me, it’s hard to find a place quiet enough to write, to achieve that feeling of being completely removed from the world. So I usually draft my poems wearing headphones and listening to either Philip Glass or to theta wave-inducing music online. Both are very hypnotic for me and allow me to reach my Zen place.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>CD</strong>:&nbsp; As one of your fans, I&#8217;m grateful for the words and images that arise from your Zen place! Finally, is there a message or a realization that you hope readers will take away after reading <em>Blinded Birds</em>?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>BFJ</strong>: First, addiction and depression are genetic “gifts” that no one asks to receive. They are treatable conditions, deserving of society’s and the medical community’s <em>non-judgmental </em>compassion and support, not its dismissal and neglect. Second, there is always, always hope. The path to recovery is fraught with physical and mental anguish, blame-placing, and failure, but keep going. Keep going. Keep going. And help others on their path, too.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



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<figure class="wp-block-image alignright size-medium is-resized"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="225" height="300" src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/B.-Fulton-Jennes--225x300.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-1401" style="width:127px;height:auto" srcset="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/B.-Fulton-Jennes--225x300.jpg 225w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/B.-Fulton-Jennes--768x1024.jpg 768w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/B.-Fulton-Jennes--1152x1536.jpg 1152w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/B.-Fulton-Jennes--1536x2048.jpg 1536w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/B.-Fulton-Jennes--scaled.jpg 1920w" sizes="auto, (max-width: 225px) 100vw, 225px" /></figure>



<p class="has-palette-color-4-color has-text-color has-link-color has-small-font-size wp-elements-37a3cbb44e24a07e9805ea2a8d53e0b1 wp-block-paragraph"><strong>B. Fulton Jennes </strong>is Poet Laureate Emerita of Ridgefield, CT, where she also served for many years as poet-in-residence at The Aldrich Contemporary Art Museum. Her poems have appeared in <em>CALYX</em>, <em>Comstock Review</em>, <em>Extreme Sonnets II,</em> <em>Rust and Moth,</em> <em>SWWIM,</em> <em>Tupelo Quarterly, </em>and many other journals and anthologies. Jennes’ poem “Glyphs of a Gentle Going” was awarded the 2022 Lascaux Prize; another poem, “Father to Son,” won the 2023 New Millennium Award. In 2021, her poem “From the Room of an Unknown Girl” was awarded the Leslie McGrath Prize. Jennes’ first collection of poems, <em>Blinded Birds</em> (Finishing Line Press), received the 2022 International Book Award for a poetry chapbook. Another chapbook, <em>FLOWN</em>—an elegy for her late sister—will be published by Porkbelly Press in 2024. She lives in Ridgefield with husband Chuck.&nbsp;</p>
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