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		<title>Meet the MedHum Team: Dr. Jack Coulehan</title>
		<link>https://medhum.org/interview/practitioner-interview/dave_hsu/meet-the-medhum-team-jack-coulehan/</link>
					<comments>https://medhum.org/interview/practitioner-interview/dave_hsu/meet-the-medhum-team-jack-coulehan/#respond</comments>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Hsu]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2026 14:07:42 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Practitioner Interview]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[burnout]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[empathy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[film]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[literature]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[meaning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[medhum]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[medical humanities]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[patient care]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[physician]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[poetry]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[reflection]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[renewal]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[stress]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Teaching]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Technology]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://medhum.org/?p=11462</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Poet-physician Jack Coulehan reflects on medical humanities, technology’s impact, and poetry’s role in healing in this thoughtful interview.]]></description>
										<content:encoded><![CDATA[
<p class="has-palette-color-5-background-color has-background has-small-font-size wp-block-paragraph"><em><strong><a href="https://medhum.org/author/jack_coulehan/">Jack Coulehan</a></strong>, poet and Professor Emeritus of Family, Population, and Preventive Medicine sits down with David Hsu to talk about Medical Humanities. This is a lightly edited version of their conversation.</em></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU:</strong> What are you up to these days? What are you working on?</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image alignright size-full is-resized"><img fetchpriority="high" decoding="async" width="600" height="600" src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/DSC00835-new.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-7552" style="width:280px" srcset="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/DSC00835-new.jpg 600w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/DSC00835-new-300x300.jpg 300w, https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/DSC00835-new-150x150.jpg 150w" sizes="(max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption"><a href="https://medhum.org/author/jack_coulehan/">Jack Coulehan</a></figcaption></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>JACK COULEHAN: </strong>In terms of creativity, I&#8217;m working on a new collection of poems that  I&#8217;m editing  now. I’m also the book review editor of <em>The Pharos</em> magazine, and that takes up an unexpectedly large amount of time.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU:</strong> Do you practice medicine at all anymore?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>JACK COULEHAN:</strong> No, actually, I retired about 12 years ago now, but I do still teach medical students as a volunteer. It’s a class that I began back when I started at Stony Brook in 1991. It&#8217;s called Medicine in Society, and it&#8217;s a first-year seminar course that deals with human, social, and interpersonal issues in medicine. We use a lot of literature and film in that and so I&#8217;m still a group leader. We also have a master&#8217;s degree program in medical humanities, and I teach a course in that. So I still keep my hand a little bit in teaching.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU:</strong> Given that you&#8217;re doing all this work in the humanities, what do you think about the relationship between medicine and the humanities?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>JACK COULEHAN:</strong> You know, that&#8217;s a surprisingly difficult question for me, because I&#8217;ve always had this kind of love/hate relationship with the term medical humanities, because I think it doesn&#8217;t quite capture the problem or the issues that we&#8217;re trying to address and what we do. In a lot of my work, I tend to cite a piece that Rafael Campo wrote in JAMA in 2005, entitled “The Medical Humanities, For Lack of a Better Term.”&nbsp; What I&#8217;ve really always thought is that what we&#8217;re trying to do is to teach students and ourselves, really, to become more reflective and more thoughtful…[Campo] used the terms reconnection, renewal, and meaning. . I think we’re not necessarily encouraged in our profession to become aware of our own needs, to become reflective, thoughtful, to become focused on the personhood of patients and so on. And so I think, through discussion, through examples in literature, film, etc., we can really try to address these issues. I guess the term medical humanities is fine as a placeholder, but I wish there was a better term for it. But, aside from reflecting on the name itself, those are the things I think we&#8217;re trying to address in medical humanities.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">When I started in this business, pretty long ago, I was thinking about [medical humanities] mostly in terms of becoming a better doctor by improving one&#8217;s empathic skills and reflecting on the patient as a person. But as time has gone on, I&#8217;ve become more aware that I think it&#8217;s really something that makes you a better person and also more able to cope with the stresses and the challenges of modern medicine. So, I think it works both ways.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU:</strong> What are your criticisms of the way medicine is practiced now, since people aren’t doing all this [reconnection, renewal, and meaning]?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>JACK COULEHAN:&nbsp;</strong> First of all, I think medicine has to be understood in our current overall culture of increasing subspecialization and focusing on narrower and narrower fields [of practice], using more and more technological instruments, tools, and machines. Also, medicine is more and more controlled by larger interests that are not necessarily oriented towards the primary values of medicine.&nbsp; There are virtually no constraints on the use of technology, the focus is entirely on disease, on narrow perspectives on disease. &nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">What I&#8217;m saying is that all this detracts from the ability necessary to see the patient in terms other than as an object that has a disease or a person who has a specific problem that needs to be addressed.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Just to give my personal examples, when you get to be 81 years old, as I am, you have a lot of opportunities to experience being a patient. I saw a cardiologist a couple of weeks ago who is an older cardiologist, and he was what I would call an ideal physician. He does interventional cardiology, he&#8217;s a professor, well-published, and yet his approach, I would consider to be very therapeutic&#8211;very positive, trusting and good eye contact. He wasn’t looking at the computer. He was just a genuine person, genuinely interested. I’ve also gone to a urologist who was just the reverse. Equally specialized in the same medical system, but one who was all about the particular issue, the particular organ, and the particular thing that&#8217;s happening to that organ.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It’s possible, you know, when you start talking about the kind of values and the kind of stresses that modern physicians are under, the first response you get is that, “Oh, yeah, that’s great. That’s what we should do.”&nbsp; But you know, we only have 15 minutes [and] we have to deal with the EMR, etc. But that belies the fact that there are physicians out there who are very good at actual doctoring and others who aren’t, and I think that’s because, well, let’s say, look at those two things on a spectrum…I would say that there is the opportunity, even in today’s world, to help students keep their belief, which most of them have, I think, when they begin, that doctoring is really interested in persons. And I think we could increase the percentage of physicians who feel that way and practice that way.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU:</strong> I&#8217;m curious because you mentioned that you&#8217;re 81. You’ve been around the medical system for decades. How has the system changed from when you first started in it until now? Is it getting worse, or has it always been like this?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>JACK COULEHAN: </strong>Well, that’s tough. I definitely think it’s worse, but I also think it&#8217;s romanticism, you know, to look back and say, “Oh the good old days.”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I graduated from medical school in 1969 and graduated from my residency and fellowship in 1975. Those were the days when I was learning to take a history. Taking a history&#8211;that&#8217;s another phrase that I dislike. But we had a little black book, that had 100 or 140 questions to ask in it. There was no concept of medical interviewing, nor the&nbsp; teaching of it. I had the feeling that a lot of the values of good doctoring were kind of implicit and not necessarily taught in those days.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And so we&#8217;ve gone through a whole phase of learning that the medical interview is a therapeutic tool, and now I think we pay a lot of lip service [to it], but I don&#8217;t know that we necessarily carry it from its place in the curriculum to its place in the clinic or the hospital.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But there&#8217;s no question that it&#8217;s gotten worse [although] the technological advances are just so incredible. I remember at some point, as a student, you have this idea that the CT scan will give the answer, or the lab result will give the answer. The patient’s story is secondary. And I remember some instructors saying, no, no, wait a minute, you should know 80% of the time what the answer is before you even request the test. The test is not meant to be, the be-all, end-all of everything, but, definitely, that is the case now. Even within practice, every advancement that happens in technology kind of nudges us closer to thinking of the computer as a solution for everything.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Let&#8217;s say, one patient comes in with chest pain or nausea. I think the tendency now is to focus on those symptoms, to think of what disease might cause them, and to do various tests, rather than sitting down with the patient and trying to understand what their situation is.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-pullquote has-palette-color-5-background-color has-background"><blockquote><p>You would use less technology if you had a better understanding from interviewing the patient and understanding their situation. And you would have developed a better trusting relationship with the patient, because you&#8217;ve expressed your concern about them as a person, not necessarily about their nausea and chest pain solely.&nbsp; </p></blockquote></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU: </strong>You mentioned this earlier, and I wanted to follow up on this little comment you made about how the practice of humanities and writing has a self-care component to it, and that as you&#8217;ve practiced it more, it&#8217;s helped you handle stress and different challenges. Can you elaborate a bit about this?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>JACK COULEHAN:</strong> As a high school, college, and even a medical student, I had this inexplicable urge to write poetry, which I did. It’s pretty juvenile. But anyhow, I did it. Then of course, I gave it up because I was a doctor. I was practicing, I was doing research, etc. And in my mid-40s, I was reaching, I think, what you might call burnout. That might be a little too dramatic, but I felt that there was something missing in my life, in my career, and I happened to have a patient who was a professor of poetry at the University of Pittsburgh, where I was teaching at the time. And one thing led to another, and she encouraged me to start writing again. And I did, and I found very quickly that by writing about…my experiences in medicine, I was able to…work through them and understand my reactions better, and so I think that poetry is a reflective practice that in a sense provides occasion for you to grapple with experiences, issues that have been troubling you, or that on the other hand have been very happy. It can work both ways.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Getting back to medical humanities, I think what we&#8217;re trying to do in medical humanities is to stimulate that kind of process in young physicians or young clinicians, whether it&#8217;s through poetry, through writing journals, through just meeting in small groups…that kind of thing…and to use not only personal experiences, but literature, poetry, film, etc. as stimuli for that.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU:</strong> Let&#8217;s wrap up with what you would like to see medhum.org do? How would you like to see it grow in the months and years to come? What type of topics or articles do you want us to tackle?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>JACK COULEHAN: </strong>I like the concept of being provocative. I&#8217;d like to encourage people to come in through material that&#8217;s kind of leading edge. I&#8217;d like to see people have conversations, comments and so on.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU: </strong>Thank you, Jack for participating in “Meet the MedHum Editors.” &nbsp; It’s been a pleasure to speak with you.</p>



<h4 class="wp-block-heading">Written by Jack Coulehan on Medhum.org (<a href="https://medhum.org/author/jack_coulehan/">View All</a>)</h4>


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		<title>Inside The Pitt: Medicine Meets Drama</title>
		<link>https://medhum.org/multimedia/podcast/dave_hsu/inside-the-pit-medicine-meets-drama/</link>
					<comments>https://medhum.org/multimedia/podcast/dave_hsu/inside-the-pit-medicine-meets-drama/#respond</comments>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Hsu]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2025 11:20:07 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Podcast]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[advanced directives]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Apollo on Call]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Doctor-Patient Relationship]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[drama]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[emergency room]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[emotional impact]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mass casualty event]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[medical drama]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[medical humanities]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[medical procedures]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[patient care]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[pediatric cases]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[physician training]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[realistic portrayal]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[television]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Pit]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://medhum.org/?p=11517</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A deep-dive podcast exploring The Pitt, a gripping medical drama, its realism, emotional impact, and lessons for medicine and humanity.]]></description>
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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong> Apollo On Call</strong></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">This month on Apollo On Call, I sit down once again with our pop culture expert, Dr. Stuart Harman, to discuss our impressions at the completion of season 1 of HBO Max’s medical drama, <em>The PITT</em>. Some of you may remember that Stu and I did a discussion about <em>The PITT</em> a few months back, shortly after the show premiered. At that time, we had only watched about half of the episodes. Now, having completed the entire first season of the show, we are ready to discuss the entire season of the show, with spoilers.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So, if you still haven’t seen <em>The PITT</em> and you’re the type that doesn’t like to have plot developments spoiled, stop right here, go back and watch the show before you listen. For everybody else, enjoy the show!&nbsp;</p>



<details class="wp-block-details has-palette-color-1-color has-text-color has-link-color has-small-font-size wp-elements-346bb8fb83e75559f35e54bb6291a066 is-layout-flow wp-block-details-is-layout-flow" style="font-style:normal;font-weight:700"><summary>READ TRANSCRIPT FROM THIS EPISODE</summary>
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">This is a lightly edited transcript of <strong>Apollo on Call</strong>&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">00:19&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Welcome to Apollo on call, the podcast of medhumb.org&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">00:23&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I&#8217;m your host. Dr, David Hsu, hope you enjoy the show.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>00:33&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">All right, we are back here for <strong>Apollo on Call</strong>. I have been rejoined by the guru of pop culture, Dr Stuart Harman, the pediatric emergency medicine physician and director of the pediatrics residency training program at the University of Ottawa, and most importantly, our expert on all things <em>The</em> <em>Pitt.</em> Because we are here to have our follow up discussion about possibly the greatest medical television drama ever made, and this time, we&#8217;re gonna do it with spoilers. Stu, welcome back to Apollo.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>01:09&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Thanks for having me back. I get invited to do a fair number of things, but I don&#8217;t always get invited back after I showed up once.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>01:17&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Well, the first episode was so fun, and we managed to make it fun, even though we didn&#8217;t spoil anything, right? So anyone who&#8217;s listening to this show, if you haven&#8217;t seen <em>The Pitt</em> yet, and you haven&#8217;t heard the first episode of our discussion on <em>The Pitt</em>, go back and listen to that one. This one is only for people who have seen the show or who have decided for some reason they don&#8217;t want to watch the show. They just want to listen to hear us talk about it. Spoiler alert. Either way, you’ve been warned.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>01:39&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Spoiler alert. You&#8217;ve been warned.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>01:42&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">All right. Now we have both finished season one of <em>The Pitt</em>. Where it stands is, apparently there is going to be Season Two, but we’ve finished Season One, and we&#8217;re willing to talk about every detail of the show, whatever comes up. We won&#8217;t hold back today. But the first question, the question that everyone asks, is, how realistic is the show? We dealt with this issue in the first discussion, and we came away from it saying <em>The Pitt</em> is very realistic. Not in the sense so much that everything is perfectly representative of a regular day in the life of an emergency room doctor, but the way they cram everything together makes it feel realistic to the audience. So even for us as physicians, watching it, the show brings out the feeling of what it would be like to be in the hospital after one of these long shifts or during these difficult cases.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>02:39&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I think that&#8217;s what I said last time, that there are a lot of scenes where you&#8217;re saying no, objectively speaking, that doesn&#8217;t really happen, but that sure feels like what&#8217;s happening.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>02:49&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Correct. Now, having said that, I think we should talk about the same issue, because this issue comes up all the time when people talk about <em>The Pitt</em> is, how realistic is it? And this time, we can actually go into some of the details. What did you think the show did really well in terms of depicting that it was real?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>03:11&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">On a very superficial level, a lot of the procedures that they show them demonstrating, I’ve got to give credit to the special effects and makeup people, a lot of that stuff looked fairly real, not all of it, but some of it.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>03:26&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Right. And the actual medical sequence, you know, like a patient comes in, they have a pneumothorax, what&#8217;s the next thing to do? They really got their money&#8217;s worth with whichever medical experts they paid. Because it seemed to be very, very accurate, right?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>03:42&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yes,&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>03:44&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And I know this, because I was watching the show with my wife, and she&#8217;d be calling out, “they need a Blakemore. Get the Blakemore”. Meanwhile, I&#8217;m sitting in the background, like, what&#8217;s a Blakemore? I don&#8217;t really know. And I&#8217;m not asking my wife, because I can&#8217;t admit to her that I don&#8217;t even know what the next thing in the sequence is. But she had trained as an internist, so she had seen a lot of these things in real life. It was really astounding to see that the show was being very, very realistic. And even the things that I did understand, like a lot of the psychosocial Family Medicine stuff, okay, this is pretty accurate. Pretty close to how we&#8217;d be handling things in real life, with a few little exceptions.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>04:17&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, I found it fun, perhaps, when I was watching some of the pediatric cases to guess what the answer was going to be. And in none of them did I feel like, Oh, that&#8217;s a cheat. That&#8217;s not right. It&#8217;s like, oh, you know what, for what you presented beforehand, that diagnosis makes sense. Although I think I mentioned before that there are a few diagnoses that I guess were less based on the medicine, and more based on what would be an interesting case to put on a TV show.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>04:48&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Now, since you&#8217;re the pediatrics guy, I&#8217;m gonna ask you about this. There&#8217;s a big case in the show where a girl drowns, right? And I have never actually seen a small child die in the emergency room or on the wards. As a family medicine trainee, you only get so much exposure. And fortunately, these things don&#8217;t happen every day in an emergency room. But I have heard people talk about it, and my wife has also talked about it a few times. They saw some younger patients, although she didn&#8217;t work with actual children, but in her case, it would be maybe young adults, the 20 year old, 21 year old.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Even those cases, as a physician, you just feel gutted, because these people have their whole life ahead of them. So for these things to happen, it&#8217;s such a tragedy, and <em>The Pitt</em> drags you through this with a young girl who drowns and drowns saving her sister because in a swimming pool accident. Now, you&#8217;ve dealt with this kind of thing in real life. How accurate was the representation of this case?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>05:50&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I think it&#8217;s fairly accurate in terms of just the medicine side of when someone&#8217;s drowned. You hear these stories about falling through the ice, freezing, cold water, drowning, where you warm them up and actually you bring them back. And I think the easy route to take on a TV show might have been to do that. Might have been to say, Oh, she&#8217;s cold. We warm her up and she&#8217;s back to normal. But that isn&#8217;t realistic in the case of somebody who&#8217;s drowning in not really freezing water. Really that person just wasn&#8217;t getting oxygen, and so if you don&#8217;t have oxygen, eventually everything shuts down, including your heart, and then you&#8217;re gone. And if I&#8217;m not mistaken, that is the case where the child — it goes to what you call asystole, right? They completely flatline, right? I think that&#8217;s the part of the show where the parent is saying, okay, well, you can shock her now, like do the thing with the paddles. And talking to a lot of my friends who&#8217;ve watched the show, when they talk about what sets this show apart from maybe some other less researched medical dramas, or even just TV shows in general, they really liked that part. They really liked how in real life, when you have a flat line like that, you can try to treat it by giving them epinephrine medication to make the heart beat. But that flat line represents that the heart is doing nothing, and the heart is not a battery that just runs out of electricity that you can shock it, put in more electricity, and it starts back up again. The electricity is to reset the rhythm of the heart when the rhythm is not compatible with life’s rhythm. But if there&#8217;s no rhythm at all, the heart&#8217;s not beating at all, and you&#8217;re flat lined like that, you can&#8217;t shock them back. And I&#8217;ve definitely seen movies and shows where they did shock somebody from a flat line and the heart comes back, or they did chest compressions, and it went from a heart not beating to the resumption of normal heart activity. So that part was realistic. And even that extra element of having the parent sort of saying, can&#8217;t you do this is a little over dramatized in my experience. But definitely, I&#8217;ve had parents who are sort of aware of something they&#8217;ve seen on TV, and they&#8217;re wondering, well, can&#8217;t you just try this? Can&#8217;t you just try it? So I thought they captured that well.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>08:06&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Now you and I have talked about medicine on the air on <em>Medical Dads</em>. We&#8217;ve talked about life in private for years, but I&#8217;ve never asked you this question. How often do these cases really happen where you see a case that you&#8217;re really gutted by because you are on the front lines of this in the peds ER. How often does it happen, is my first question, and then I&#8217;ll ask you my second question after you answer this.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>08:32&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So, I mean, drowning, specifically, in my city, we have a couple of drownings a year, and most of them don&#8217;t actually make it to the emergency department, because the person&#8217;s found, you know, significantly after the time that they&#8217;ve drowned. So they happen. They happen enough that we still have —&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>08:49&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">How about, not necessarily a drowning, but like a tragic, senseless death of a child.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>08:54&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Any child that died — well, are we just talking about, how often do we see children die in the emergency department, or die somewhat unexpectedly in the emergency department?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>09:03&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I think that&#8217;s what the show is trying to hit with this. That&#8217;s the note the show is trying to hit on this case.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>09:08&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I would say those happen, those happen several times a year. It&#8217;s not every day, it&#8217;s not every week, even. Sometimes it&#8217;s not every month. And then you&#8217;ll have a month where it happens twice.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>09:23&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">This is to you, or just to the department, because you&#8217;re not there every hour.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>09:27&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I&#8217;m talking about the department on the whole. To me, it happens enough times, but not so many times that I can&#8217;t — I was going to say not so many times that I can&#8217;t remember the cases. But actually, that&#8217;s not — that&#8217;s not exactly true. It&#8217;s happened enough times that there are ones that I wouldn&#8217;t remember unless somebody reminded me. But I would say, well, once every couple of years, I&#8217;ll personally be the person there. For a case where we don&#8217;t bring them back, non-survival in the emergency department setting.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>10:06&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So this is my second question, and I&#8217;m very curious about this, going beyond <em>The Pitt</em>, because <em>The Pitt</em> is just focusing on what&#8217;s happening in the halls of the hospital for that shift. How do you handle this as a medical doctor, when you go home after you’ve had these things happen. They&#8217;re super emotional, draining. Are you able to process it in some way? Are you compartmentalizing it and not talking about it with your family or do you bring it up at dinner? What happens to you, Dr Harmon, when you go home after a case like this?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>10:43&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I don&#8217;t think they addressed this on the show <em>The Pitt</em>, but there is this element of you see some of these terrible things, and it&#8217;s not always a death, right? Sometimes you see some things related to child abuse or just catastrophic injuries, where the person survives, but you know that their outcome afterwards, it&#8217;s not gonna be great. I&#8217;m a pediatric emergency doctor, so it&#8217;s all children. So there is definitely this real life aspect of not really being able to go home and just talk about that with your spouse. Just unload all that stuff all the time. Because, my wife, she definitely signed up for better or for worse. You know, sickness, health, richness, poorness, all that, but not specifically to be my therapist, where I can come and put so much stuff on her that now she is going to have her own trauma, right? So that people ask my wife, how do you deal with having to deal with hearing about all the horrible things?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>11:45&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Well, she&#8217;s also, she&#8217;s not a physician, right? So she would be, she&#8217;d be facing it with a different perspective. She&#8217;s a teacher, so it would give her a different perspective. And it might be, it&#8217;s not good or bad. It’s just, it would be different.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>11:58&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">That&#8217;s a good point. People listening to this podcast, as opposed to the one you and I usually do together, don&#8217;t know that my wife is a teacher. And you know, people choose their careers based on the type of things that they like to do, expect to do, what they handle well, what they don&#8217;t handle well. So you wouldn&#8217;t expect people who don&#8217;t go into medicine to necessarily be well equipped to hear about that type of death, those types of tragedies, all the time. So there is this element of when I go home, I can talk a bit to my wife, but I consciously try not to overdo it. So how else do we deal with it? How else does a physician — how else do I process these things?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>12:45&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I mean, you strike me as being a very jovial guy in general. I&#8217;m sure most of their regular listeners to medical dads would agree. And even the people who are going to hear us on <strong>Apollo on Call </strong>will agree. You&#8217;re pretty jovial. It&#8217;s hard to imagine you simmering or stewing, for lack of a better word about a case that happens, but I&#8217;m sure that this job is difficult, right, and your job in many ways is more intense than my job. As a family doctor, things do happen. A lot of times they&#8217;re not happening directly under my supervision. And even then, I&#8217;m sometimes just like — feels like a huge thing has hit me on the head, and I need a week or two to slowly, pace my way through it. But the stuff you&#8217;re seeing and the stuff <em>The Pitt</em> people are seeing is a whole different level. That&#8217;s why I&#8217;m curious.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>13:33&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">You know what I think, what aspect of this is for a lot of people, when something, when a tragedy, just happens, simply being aware of it or witnessing it doesn&#8217;t necessarily affect you in an unshakable way, compared to if you feel that there&#8217;s some element of that that&#8217;s your fault, right? Some element of that, well, it&#8217;s your responsibility, and you could have done more. So it&#8217;s not every time I have a bad case that I have a long process that I have to go through to get through it and move on. But from time to time, there are going to be those cases where there is some sense of what could have been done differently. What more could I have done that day? Or if only this thing had happened or lined up just right? Those can sort of rob you of sleep a little bit. Plus, there&#8217;s a whole other element that you&#8217;re accountable for some of these things, right? So you never know if somebody is going to launch a complaint or a lawsuit or something along those lines. And I think actually for a lot of physicians, that sometimes robs them of more sleep than the actual case itself. Sometimes even a case that went well and you did everything right can rob you of a lot of sleep if other people don&#8217;t think you did it right. But so, yeah, that&#8217;s a little bit of a peek behind the curtain for old Dr Harmon here. Sometimes there are some of those that you have a sense of responsibility about it, that affects you a bit. But I do feel like I have a fairly good outlook on all of that. You know, I think I&#8217;ve come to grips with the limitations of being a human being and just the fact that, for me, if I often look at it, okay, some terrible thing happened, somebody was in a car accident, or someone had something really horrible happened to them, and if I wasn&#8217;t there, that thing would have happened anyway. So me being there, I&#8217;m exposed, I&#8217;m aware of something, but it&#8217;s not like being aware changed anything. And at least I could try to help in some kind of a way. I think that that outlook has helped me manage quite a bit of this.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>15:59&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Not a bad way to think your way through it. I think I hear what you&#8217;re saying. A lot of times these bad things happen. And sure, sometimes it&#8217;s like, you know, as a physician, we made a mistake. And so you&#8217;re kind of thinking, okay, could I have done better? A lot of times there&#8217;s nothing obviously that you did wrong, but it&#8217;s just, could I have done things a little bit differently? Maybe we could have achieved an even better outcome than whatever outcome we had, right? And so that kind of thing, it&#8217;s hard to let that go as human beings, if we care at all about our patients, right? And a lot of times these things are out of our control, but we kind of wish that it was still within our control. And you do see elements of this playing out on the show, right? Like the older doctor, Dr Robby, he&#8217;s seen all this stuff before. So for him, he&#8217;s seen good and the bad, and he has to balance it. And these younger people who are coming through and training and seeing things for the first time, they&#8217;re getting caught up in stuff like, oh, I had a patient die, right? Like, this happens to Whitaker a lot on the show at the beginning, it&#8217;s almost like a comedy at the beginning, right? Everything he touches goes bad for a while. He&#8217;s like, maybe I&#8217;m just not cut out for this kind of thing. But you realize that&#8217;s also part of being a doctor, right? That you have to learn that you can&#8217;t save everybody. A lot of it&#8217;s out of your control. You do your best, and then you move on to the next one, because the system needs you to keep functioning.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>17:19&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">&nbsp;In the show, I noticed that they did try to do some debriefs. You saw that with some of the cases where they get everybody together and try to do what we call a debrief. We do that. We do that at my hospital, if somebody dies, certainly.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>17:32&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And you have, like, a moment of silence and stuff. I&#8217;ve never actually seen that in real life.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>17:36&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The moment of silence, I would say that is not routine. We don&#8217;t always do a moment of silence, but what we do is something where we get everybody who is involved in the case together after the case is over, you give people five to ten minutes to go and sort of clear their head, try to get everybody back together, not in the same room where the case happened, where everybody&#8217;s looking at it, but in a different room. And you go through this debrief, where you try to find out from people, first of all, does everybody understand what happened? You go through the medicine of the case, describe what happened. Then you give people an opportunity to ask questions, or to say, well, how come we didn&#8217;t do this? Or should we have done that? And then you get a chance to talk through that. And then there&#8217;s an emotional part to it too, where you just like, give people a chance to express what they&#8217;re feeling and acknowledge that and talk through that. And like what you were saying, after you&#8217;ve been around for a while, you see certain things. It&#8217;s very different than when you first start out. So often with these debriefs for children who&#8217;ve died by time they&#8217;ve got to the emergency department or in the emergency department, I&#8217;ll start off by setting that stage for everybody, since some of the people in the room this is the first time they&#8217;ve lost a patient, and explaining that on TV, or what we are often led to expect is that when someone needs to be resuscitated where their heart stops, or something like that, that 80% of the time, if we do everything right, we&#8217;re going to bring them back. Whereas that, that&#8217;s not the expectation of the statistics, right? For some of these cases, they&#8217;re coming in with less than a 30% expectation, 30% chance, that you could actually bring them back from that, sometimes less, right? Sometimes the patients come in and they&#8217;re gone. And so I&#8217;m often explaining that to the group, that there was no real, real hope. It would have been a bit of a miracle. And sometimes we do pull off miracles, but just so that they understand that.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>19:26&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So you&#8217;re telling me that when you do the debrief, you actually reference television.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>19:31&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">No, no, I won&#8217;t say, I won&#8217;t say, oh, you know, if you&#8217;ve been watching a lot of television, you think we’d bring this back. But I&#8217;ll say it more along the lines of, what we have to keep in mind here is that although it can feel like or people may come into this with the expectation that we&#8217;re going be able to reverse this, most of the time, that&#8217;s not what it is for this case, this patient actually came in asystole.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>19:53&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">This was actually a known thing on the original ER. When ER came out, people would watch the show and track how often they got out the paddles and charged it, and people survived, right? And, wow, 80% of the people on the show survive, right, and it would create this false expectation for patients. You&#8217;re just like, oh, beep, okay, get out the paddles. We can bring them back, right? And, and it makes for great television drama, but it&#8217;s not realistic, right? I think in this show we have a bit more of a realistic view of it. A lot of the patients are dying, and it&#8217;s gut wrenching to watch, but I think they did a pretty good job of balancing that. The doctors on this show are — they&#8217;re heroic, right? And we can talk a bit about this, but they&#8217;re tempered by the reality of their limitations as physicians.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>20:43&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">One thing that I worry about what this show might do that&#8217;s going to create a false impression. There were so many times over the course of this one season where one character is doing some kind of medical procedure and other characters are telling them, Don&#8217;t. Stop. That&#8217;s dangerous. You&#8217;re going to kill the patient. And the person will be saying something along the lines of, this is unconventional, I read a case report once. They&#8217;re treating it like it&#8217;s fine to do these Maverick moves, right? And it always works out, even if it&#8217;s the Junior trainee trying something that&#8217;s way out there. It never fails, and that, I think in real life, that&#8217;s not how that goes. Not to say that people can&#8217;t do — I do feel a little bit like the emergency department in particular could — that type of work in the field of medicine can potentially attract a certain type of personality, right? Because people have different ways of how they react under stress. I don&#8217;t just mean when you&#8217;re stressed, but when you have something critical happen. There are people who, their natural instinct is to sort of slow down, stop, go inward and think through things, which sometimes is the right approach, but sometimes you miss the opportunity to make a quick decision that you should be doing. But then there are the other people who are faced with any kind of pressure situation, their thing is to act, and they don&#8217;t necessarily slow down to think. That&#8217;s their instinct, is to act. And they have to fight that instinct to slow down and think. And if I was going to generalize the stereotype, I would say for some the quick acting is what can be attract them to emergency medicine, and I would hate for people to watch this show and get the impression that, like, yes, that&#8217;s the way I should behave when I get into medicine. And there&#8217;s going to be lots of opportunities for me to do that and be rewarded for it.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>22:32&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Right. This is something that the show is spinning a little bit, and because they&#8217;re making the pace of the show so fast that you have to be problem solving that way. And emergency medicine is faster than most other forms of medicine that are practiced. But this is a really, really extreme way of portraying it.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>22:49&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, and it would be more collaborative in my hospital, at least. Even if you do need to do this crazy procedure that&#8217;s a Hail Mary toss, it wouldn&#8217;t be with your supervisor or with somebody from some other service, because apparently the surgeons in this show like to come down to the emergency department and tell you what not to do. But it wouldn&#8217;t be with some other service on the sidelines saying, don&#8217;t do that. I&#8217;m going to bring that patient to the operating room instead but you do it anyway. And then they say, oh —&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>23:15&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">All&#8217;s well that ends well, that&#8217;s repeatedly on the show.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>23:20&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">That&#8217;s the theme of the show, all’s well that ends well.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>23:23&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Now, here&#8217;s a case that a lot of people have talked about and written about. It&#8217;s the case of the Advanced Directives. There&#8217;s an old man right in the middle part of the season. He gets brought in. He&#8217;s having difficulty breathing. He&#8217;s already got pretty advanced dementia. There&#8217;s a son and a daughter. They&#8217;re arguing about what they should do, because dad has already said he doesn&#8217;t want to be hooked up to a ventilator. He doesn&#8217;t want any heroic measures taken. And then the son says he&#8217;s in agreement with dad&#8217;s plans. The daughter says, we want to keep him alive. I haven&#8217;t spent enough time with dad yet, right? And they&#8217;re having an argument about this, this specific case, did you feel this was realistic or not from what you&#8217;ve seen?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>24:10&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I was going to ask you the question, because in pediatrics, these advanced directives are something that are made with the parents. I&#8217;ve had cases where we didn&#8217;t have an Advanced Directive, and the parents had to make the children — adult children of grown up parents — had to make a decision. So I remember distinctly one of these cases when I was in medical school, we&#8217;re really not sure. So are we starting chest compressions and resuscitation, or are we not? And the family, we were waiting for the family to make that decision. And in pediatrics, we&#8217;ve had cases certainly where the parents were not in the head space, where anybody was able to get them to agree to an Advanced Directive, and so we&#8217;ve had to make this decision on the spot. But I was going to ask you, is that actually legal in Canada that you could be an elderly person who has written an Advanced Directive stating what your wishes are, and that goes out the window?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>25:06&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">To the best of my knowledge, what happens in real life is not so cut and dry. So just because you have an Advanced Directive and you&#8217;ve indicated what your wishes are, when you actually get into the hospital in that moment, my experience of it is, the family can still go against the advanced directives. There was a case that was a family that I knew pretty well. I had looked after the elderly parents, both of them for many years, and unfortunately, it was a very strange case, because the lady had developed Creutzfeldt–Jakob dementia, like mad cow disease, which is a really, really severe form of dementia. Actually, backtrack. The lady had just developed really, really severe dementia over a couple years, and she got admitted to hospital with some other sort of, like must have been a broken leg or something, and there was this whole dilemma about, should they do any measures to prolong this lady&#8217;s life? Her quality of life was already very, very, very poor. It was very severe dementia. The children, the children that were living in Canada, were all on board with, you know, no heroic measures. Do Not Resuscitate, right? And then suddenly there was another child who wasn&#8217;t even in Canada. It was a long-lost son or someone from China, calls long distance to the hospital and says absolutely not. We must do everything for mom and dad, right? And in this case, the family had already agreed there was a plan, and I think the husband was on board with the plan, and he would have been the substantive decision maker. The children were in agreement with the plan, but they couldn&#8217;t get 100% consensus, right? There was this other voice, and as soon as the hospital heard that there&#8217;s this other voice, they&#8217;re like, whoa, we&#8217;re gonna back off. We can&#8217;t execute this because there could be legal ramifications later. So it was almost to the point of whether legally that written document or the substantive decision maker document held water or not, didn&#8217;t matter anymore. It was we need to get everyone on board. And I&#8217;m not even sure that&#8217;s the right thing to do, but that was actually what ended up happening in real life. So they ended up prolonging this lady&#8217;s life for x more months/years and it was very interesting to me to watch this happen. A lot of times, we&#8217;ve seen these things happening in real time. You and I can debrief about the show in detail and break down, what&#8217;s the law, what&#8217;s the ethics? Right? We can teach a whole course on it, ask all our students to write an essay about what they saw. But in real life, you have five minutes, right? The person&#8217;s about to code, do we do this or not? And you get this phone call from China, and it&#8217;s like, okay, everyone, we can&#8217;t decide now, right? We&#8217;re in a log jam.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>27:57&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">&nbsp;I had looked it up at one point after that show, because I was so curious as to what the law is in Canada. It seems it&#8217;s not exactly the same in every province. So province to province, there&#8217;s differences, but the general consensus seems to be that if you have an advanced directive that&#8217;s written at the time, when you, as the person writing it, are competent, then that&#8217;s legally binding, and other people can&#8217;t overturn that unless they are petitioning to say that you weren&#8217;t in your right mind when you wrote it, or that you&#8217;re you know, they would otherwise say it&#8217;s invalid. But that situation of two adult children coming in and saying, oh, we&#8217;re not following dad&#8217;s advance, I don&#8217;t, I don&#8217;t think that that&#8217;s the way that&#8217;s supposed to work here.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>28:35&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Right. But in real life, I think what&#8217;s happening is the doctors want the family to feel like they&#8217;re getting heard, right? So they&#8217;re giving the daughter the option, which I guess is what&#8217;s happening in my patient&#8217;s case, right? They&#8217;re allowing this child who isn&#8217;t even present to be heard and let them sort it out as a family. Because otherwise, if we just let, you know, the brother decide, and then the sister doesn&#8217;t get any say in it, this is going to become a huge issue for them afterwards. So it&#8217;s almost better to let them work work through this thing as a family, which is the approach of the show. I think that probably is the best option, honestly. We&#8217;ve gotten into discussions about things like advance directives, and it gets really complicated. It&#8217;s an Advance Directive. It was written. It was scribbled on a piece of paper, right, and the date is wrong. Is it still valid? Like, these issues appear all the time, right? If you look up, what do you need to indicate your will? All you need is a piece of paper that you wrote down what you want done, and you sign it right? And that can be a will. But will it hold up in court? Will it hold up after you die, when people examine it under a microscope? No one really knows, right? So it&#8217;s very, very complicated.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>29:47&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But if anything good came out of that episode of the show, or if something good could come out of people listening to the podcast and listeners talk about it, hopefully it would be that someone listening or someone watching would be motivated to say, okay, let&#8217;s actually set up advanced directives for our family members and talk about it now, instead of at the time, this analogy that&#8217;s often made of, you know, if you&#8217;re on an airplane and the plane is crashing, that&#8217;s not the best time to be going over instructions for what you&#8217;re going to do with an oxygen mask, and that is tough, right? Better to do that before it happens, when everything is safe and when everyone&#8217;s thinking clearly&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>30:26&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Except before it happens, you don&#8217;t really know what it would actually feel like to be in that situation, right? Today, if you ask me about advanced directives, I have a certain opinion about it, but when I&#8217;m actually facing life and death, right? I might have a slightly different answer at that point.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>30:45&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I think what Dr Hsu is saying is that, before the plane takes off, put the child&#8217;s oxygen mask on, after you put your oxygen mask on. I agree with that concept, but when that plane is crashing, in that moment, he might change his mind to be like, You know what? Both oxygen masks. I want them all.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>31:01&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Save yourself. Man, physician, you cannot heal other people if you cannot heal thyself first. Now, here&#8217;s the question about that case, though, so the brother and the sister have this long, emotional conversation guided by the doctors, where they eventually explain why it is that the sister isn&#8217;t ready to let Dad go, and it&#8217;s because she didn&#8217;t have a great relationship with dad, and they have this long, teary, emotional conversation, and this type of conversation I&#8217;ve had with my patients in the family doctor office, because these patients, because I know these people so well. I&#8217;ve known them for years. So then when something happens to their family, they come in and it&#8217;s also not happening at the moment. So then they come in later, and then we have a talk, and it&#8217;s kind of like a debrief and they can explain why their marriage is struggling, or why their relationship with their son isn&#8217;t what it should be, and so forth. And that&#8217;s the coolest part of family medicine for me, but I&#8217;m wondering, because as I was watching the show, I don&#8217;t know, I&#8217;ve never been in your shoes, or not much, right, in an emergency room setting, and I feel like there, this is a bit forced. If I was in the emergency room, I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;d blab out all this stuff to the doctor who I just met, right? I&#8217;d probably be more inclined to go back and talk about it with my GP or my buddies, right? But with this in the emergency room, in the moment of, just like unloading all the stuff about my childhood, Is that realistic?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>32:35&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">That&#8217;s exaggerated, but not completely unrealistic.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>32:37&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Okay, so it does happen.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>32:39&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, you&#8217;d be surprised in the emergency department, how often we find ourselves using up a fair amount of time on some of these things that are more probably appropriately addressed elsewhere. But this is just where they&#8217;re coming up. So this is where we&#8217;re going to talk about it, where sometimes you&#8217;re trying to get somebody on board with what to do, or what the next step is to take, and you find yourself spending a lot of time doing that, and some physicians are more willing to do that than others, and some physicians are more naturally inclined to that than others. I think in peds emerge people are maybe more inclined to do that just by nature of being drawn to working with families and children in that way, but it does touch on this character of Slow Mo that they have on the show.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>33:24&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Right. So this character is the trainee who spends too much time with her patients, so everything is getting backlogged because she&#8217;s not seeing patients quickly enough.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>33:37&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">There definitely are trainees and sometimes even staff physicians who can be a bit like that. And the show makes it seem very noble that they all are the same. Well, I guess the show isn&#8217;t saying that they&#8217;re all the same, but this show presents a very noble version of that, where it&#8217;s just because I care so much about these patients and giving them the positive experience that I get drawn into doing these things. But it is true that by the time you&#8217;re now having just chit chat and conversation with the families, that actually is becoming a bit of a detriment to the other patients in the department that you need to be spending time with. But I feel there are also sometimes situations where people are spending too much time with the patient, maybe because they enjoy that part more than they enjoy going to see the next patient whose problem might be more challenging, or sometimes the easiest part is the part that&#8217;s just building rapport. And actually, I&#8217;ve certainly met patients who it doesn&#8217;t matter how much rapport you build with them, if you can&#8217;t also nail the medicine part, then none of that rapport is going to mean a thing.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>34:48&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Well, ideally you should do both. But that gets into this whole art of medicine. I thought it was interesting that the show actually addressed this, right? That the doctors can work at different speeds and the different speeds do affect how the system runs on a whole. It also affects the quality of the medical care, right? So there are patients who are getting brushed by, right, like they&#8217;re coming in with issues, and the doctors don&#8217;t even have time to deal with it, that if they spent a little more time, they might unearth something. And so we see both sides of this on the show. It&#8217;s quite interesting, because it gets into the whole business of medicine being a human-being endeavor, and that means it comes with a lot of variability, right? You have the slow doctor, the thoughtful doctor, you have the fast-thinking doctor, you have the doctor who&#8217;s not so good with patients. And there&#8217;s always two people in the room, right? It&#8217;s not just the Doctor, the patient is also part of this interaction and affecting it. So I liked how the show presented this issue to us.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>35:46&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I also liked that the show didn&#8217;t give us an answer or didn&#8217;t tell us what&#8217;s right and what&#8217;s wrong. They had that character slow mo, and they did show that actually sometimes that being slow is causing an issue, and the element of the staff physician actually trying to teach that you can&#8217;t just be slow because you&#8217;re not confident enough to make a final decision, or that you&#8217;re always afraid you&#8217;re going to miss something, because that is not a good type of slow to be, that you&#8217;re doing unnecessary tests, spending unnecessary time because you&#8217;re afraid of what you&#8217;re going to miss. But then, on the flip side, they also had it where that character realizes the patient has mercury poisoning because she took the extra time to connect with the patient and to look into it.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>36:27&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">There is also a scene, if you remember, Collins comes up to her and is like you&#8217;re doing a good job, so don&#8217;t listen to all the doubters, and you keep on doing you, which I think is a really good message too. There&#8217;s no right answer the way that the show presents it, which I thought was quite true. That really is the thing. I feel like I&#8217;ve experienced this as a teacher in family medicine, where sometimes these students come through and they&#8217;re a little bit slower, and it&#8217;s like, wow, a lot of the people in the department are really piling on this person. They feel like they should be faster, and they&#8217;re missing the point that actually this person is really honest, and they&#8217;re very good with the patients, and maybe the level of expectation for what we have for each individual person doesn&#8217;t need to be exactly the same. It certainly isn&#8217;t, when they&#8217;re actually working.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>37:14&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I feel though the reality of what should be done is quite nuanced, or is in between this, because definitely you&#8217;ll have trainees who can be slow enough. People just keep telling them, you do you. And if people sell the narrative that this is actually the best possible care, right? Because that patient is going to be so satisfied the more time you spend with them, you could spend an entire shift with one family, right? That could definitely happen. So —&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>37:41&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">That would not be good medicine. Basically, is what you’re saying.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>37:43&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">That would not be good medicine. But then you also do reach a certain point where you do actually have to say, I gotta do me. I gotta be comfortable with what my approach is. And there are some doctors who I&#8217;ve known, who&#8217;ve been great doctors, who get great patient feedback, who do spend more time — are a bit slower, but I wouldn&#8217;t tell them to change. I don&#8217;t think I could make them change, and I don&#8217;t think they would be better by trying to be faster.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>38:13&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I mean, it gets into this question where, what do you think is a good doctor for you. If you were the patient and you walked into the Pitt because you had some injury, which doctor would you want to treat you? And everyone might have a different answer. So maybe you tell me which out of all those people, who would you want to treat you?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>38:38&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Honestly, what you want is the doctor who is the best at getting the diagnosis.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>38:41&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">You think so?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>38:42&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah. I mean, I think pretty much universally, if the person at the end of the day gave you the right answer and treated you and you got better, then that&#8217;s the doctor you would want, even if their bedside manner was slop, even if they were terrible.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>39:03&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s true.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>39:06&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I think it&#8217;s true if you actually do get better.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>39:10&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">That&#8217;s only if you think of medicine as a purely zero sum or a binary thing, where there&#8217;s a right answer and a wrong answer, right? Which it&#8217;s not. It&#8217;s a human being thing.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>39:19&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Well, I mean, everybody wants it all, right? Everybody wants the doctor that’s got great bedside manner and the right diagnosis. But if we posed it as a question of you can get a doctor who&#8217;s super nice to you, but you don&#8217;t get the right diagnosis, would you rather have that or a doctor who&#8217;s terrible bedside manner, but definitely you&#8217;ll get better?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>39:37&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Okay, but let&#8217;s talk about <em>The Pitt</em>, all right? You&#8217;re not allowed to pick Dr Robby, because I think we would all pick Dr Robby. He seems to have it all at the beginning of the shift, but clearly he&#8217;s a flawed character as the shift goes on. But okay, maybe you can include Dr Robby out of all these people you walk into the emergency room during that 15 hour shift, which of the doctors would you be glad to see the most?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>39:58&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah? You know that doctor, Dr Robby, he does have that kind of thing where all his flaws are the things that are self-destructive. He burns himself up for the job. So most patients would definitely like the doctor who&#8217;s got all these great qualities and yeah, but at the end of the day, the doctor himself is —&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>40:15&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">All right. I feel like you and I could talk about <em>The Pitt</em> endlessly, yeah, but we must. move forward a little bit here.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>40:22&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">We should just have a whole other podcast series on the show. We&#8217;ll call it the Bottomless Pitt, where we come up with endless things to say about this show.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>40:30&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Now, just thinking broadly from a medical humanities standpoint, because this is <strong>Apollo on Call</strong>. What do you think about the show overall? Like a meta thing in terms of medical humanities?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>40:43&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I think the show is actually not a bad thing for physicians and even for non-physicians to watch and take home talking points from some of the various scenarios that they put in the show. The scenario of sickle cell disease patients, the scenario of the end-of-life discussions, even the scenario where it&#8217;s just a throwaway thing, I kind of wondered why they put it in there, because they didn&#8217;t follow up on the plot thread. But there&#8217;s a character who misses a urinary tract infection and a patient who comes back, and another character who makes a suggestion, are you sure it&#8217;s not because she&#8217;s obese that you just biased against obese people, that you fat shamed her and so somehow missed the diagnosis. And the character who otherwise seems very understanding of people, is sort of saying, oh, I don&#8217;t think so, but I will reflect on that. I thought it was weird in the show, but for people watching from a medical humanities point of view, it&#8217;s a good talking point, a good starting point. Hey, do we think that we have unconscious bias against the obese that maybe affects the way we treat them medically.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>41:46&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I thought overall, that the show does a really good job of championing medicine and portraying doctors as heroes, and I don&#8217;t think we get enough of that anymore in a way that really hits home. Maybe I&#8217;m just jaded from working as a physician. I feel like in this day and age, and I&#8217;m talking about doctors themselves — this show doesn&#8217;t talk about this — but I think maybe we should talk about it a bit. There&#8217;s a lot of this talk in medicine about how doctors are not paid enough. There&#8217;s not enough money in medicine. There isn&#8217;t a single character in this show that is portrayed as being in it for the money. But you and I went to med school, we did our training. There are many people around us that are in it for the money. Right? That character is missing on the show, and I think they deliberately omitted it, yeah, because they want us to see the heroism part of being a doctor again, which I think is actually a cool thing, because we don&#8217;t hear this enough anymore.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>42:51&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It&#8217;s true. I mean, I will reflect that this show is taking place in an American hospital. So maybe nobody&#8217;s saying anything about money, because they&#8217;re being paid so much more than we are here in Canada.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>43:01&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Well, they&#8217;re all residents and trainees. So they actually are not. One of the students, Whitaker, has nowhere to live. He’s slumming it in an empty ward in the hospital.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>43:12&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">That&#8217;s true. All the all the doctors and residents complaining about their salary on this show are all hiding out together with all the other sub specialists and specialists that should be showing up to the ER to see patients apparently don&#8217;t on the show, since the only characters we see outside of the emergency are surgeons and the odd other person that wanders through when, in real life, there are other people in hospital coming to the emergency departments besides the emergency docs.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>43:36&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Right. So it does seem like we&#8217;re painting a picture of people who ultimately, for better or worse, no matter what personality type they have, they are in the job because it is their calling. And that&#8217;s not completely accurate in real life, but it does reflect well. I think people need to see this. And I think you talked about this in the first episode we did. This is not a bad show to watch for doctors to remind you of why you got into medicine. You know, because we lose sight of that during the day-to-day grind of a long career. For sure, we lose that.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>44:09&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, this wasn&#8217;t lost on me either watching the show. I reflect on how lots of physicians I&#8217;ve talked to about the show have told me that they didn&#8217;t make it through the first couple episodes, that they just saw it and it&#8217;s too overwhelming, or it&#8217;s just too intense. And the show does have a bit of a weird intensity, where at the beginning, people are having scalpels dropped in their foot. I kept expecting some main character to have some weird death in the show, but that said, I watched the show to completion because you told me to, because we were going to talk about this podcast. So I knew from the beginning, I&#8217;m pushing through. And one thing I thought the show had some serious value in that the characters don&#8217;t quit, right? They&#8217;re going through all this crazy stuff, and they have this thing of I&#8217;m doing this. And I felt a bit inspired by that, or at least I felt a little bit like, yeah, like in every other area of my life that I&#8217;m trying to use television to emulate what I should be, this too. I should try to be more like Dr Robby.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>45:09&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I definitely got that feeling. Like at the end of the season, I was like, Screw it. We should just all go back and do our jobs. I got to stop podcasting all the time and get back to the core thing that I do, right? And then I went back to work, and I was like, yeah, I could kind of see why I need to do more podcasts. Now. Season Two of <em>The Pitt</em> is coming. It is going to be a real thing, right? And I&#8217;m not sure how they&#8217;re going to structure it. What does <strong>Apollo on Call</strong> want to see out of Season Two of <em>The Pitt,</em> if we had any say in it at all?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>45:43&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I think I said on the previous podcast my spiel about how I thought it actually exists perfectly as a singular entity, but aside from the fact that maybe there shouldn&#8217;t be a Season Two at all, what do I want to see? Well, there&#8217;s a few plot threads that we&#8217;re all dying to see how it plays out, right? So what does happen with this doctor who&#8217;s using drugs because the show — that aspect is a bit unrealistic — like the way the staff person just exploded on him, the actual medical system treats those doctors as patients. A doctor with a drug addiction is treated as a person with an illness, and the medical system is actually quite supportive of those doctors and helps them to get recovery if they&#8217;re willing to admit they have a problem. So now that he&#8217;s been forced into that situation, will we see him come back? Will he be allowed to work in an emergency department, or will he come back as a family doctor with a thriving practice, but who&#8217;s not allowed to have access to drugs.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>46:44&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Will Dr Robby even call him out for it officially, it seemed kind of ambiguous, right? Because he took Langdon’s pills, it looked like he was about to flush them down the toilet. So maybe he wasn&#8217;t going to mention the thing to anyone. He deliberately didn&#8217;t tell any other people about what was actually going on. So it&#8217;s possible that he even buries this issue and allows his prodigy student to continue. But I&#8217;m not sure where they&#8217;re going to go with it. There&#8217;s a lot of ways this thing could play out.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>47:11&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Especially because they have that other character who knows, I forget what her name is, Santos. So Santos knows, and I don&#8217;t think her character would let it drop if they had Season Two, so maybe there&#8217;d be that. Also, we need to find out what happens with Gloria, the charge nurse. After getting punched in the face and her saying that she&#8217;s not coming back, they really kind of left it a little bit like Robby thinks she&#8217;s coming back.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>47:40&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In real life, that character definitely comes back. In real life, that&#8217;s just a bad day. She might need a month off. You know she&#8217;ll be back. This job is in her blood and also, the actress that gives that performance, this character is actually one of the best characters on the show. There&#8217;s no way she&#8217;s not coming back.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>47:58&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Maybe that character doesn&#8217;t need the paycheck, but that actress definitely needs the paycheck and won&#8217;t walk away from that money.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>48:05&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Now, if you were doing this Season Two, and one thing about Season One is they did this whole one hour, is a one hour of real time —&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>48:15&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">&nbsp;which I think only partly worked. After a while, they were a bit constrained by that gimmick&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>48:22&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Right. Now, most likely they would continue that gimmick. I don&#8217;t see them changing that because it&#8217;s such an important part of the show&#8217;s description, right? So how do they top this? Like, how do they do a Season Two? The reason a regular eight hour shift, or a 12 hour shift stretches in the 15 hours is right at the 12 hour mark, this mass casualty event happens. So are we going to jump forward a year in Pittsburgh when another crazy mass casualty event happens? What plot line could they possibly put into this thing for next season?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>48:58&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I would imagine it&#8217;s just a regular 12 hour shift, and then they extend it with three hours of them doing the paperwork that piles up so you have a 12 hour shift.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>49:06&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">This is why you&#8217;re not writing television, right? You would want to go for uber realism, like we want the medicine to be totally true to life.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>49:17&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Well, I mean, you haven&#8217;t read my exciting fan fiction that I wrote about that other doctor coming to grips with her bias against fat people.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>49:26&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Hour 15, Dr Harmon goes home, but is unable to talk to his family about all the crazy things he sees, and just goes and takes a nap. In this show, we don&#8217;t really see that. We see these people — they are soldiers, right? Literally, right? The mass casualty event happens, and these people are drawing their own blood and pouring it back into the patients.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>49:47&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Never done that, I’ll tell people. I’ve never done that.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>49:51&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So this show tells us that people are thinking of medicine as their whole life. This is a calling beyond the calling, which, on the one hand, earlier, I said it&#8217;s kind of nice that we get this heroic portrayal. On the other hand, it&#8217;s kind of unrealistic, and maybe we need a bit of a reality check also.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>50:08&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, that&#8217;s an insightful answer. Too bad listeners will never be able to hear it, because we&#8217;re going to have to edit that in such a way that none of your patients think they&#8217;re going to lose their family doctor in the next 10 years.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>50:17&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I don&#8217;t know. If I was in charge of Season Two, I feel they don&#8217;t necessarily need a mass casualty event, but I actually wanted to see more of some of the night shift doctors, so I thought maybe they could start the season with a little bit of an overlap the first couple hours with the doctors from the night shift, like the Asian doctor, because I definitely felt like I could have used a little bit more Asian representation on the show, and that guy that was sipping on the cappuccinos, he was the man.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>50:43&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">What about Santos? I thought she was the Asian represented by that show.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>50:47&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Well, that&#8217;s true. Santos is also there, but her character is a bit of a train wreck. So you were saying, like, which doctor would you want as your physician?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>50:55&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Not her.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>50:57&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Definitely not her. But I could imagine season eight of <em>The Pitt</em>, by then, she&#8217;s going to be an attending, and this whole place is going to fall apart.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>51:04&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Actually, you know maybe the doctor I would want is Dr Abbott. He seemed to have his act together. You know, when he’s not at the edge of the roof.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>51:12&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">He&#8217;s a nut job. Also, he knows his medicine the most. So I guess that makes sense, because that&#8217;s what you&#8217;re looking for. But this guy, if you recall, he had threatened to jump off the building at the beginning of season one, right? The show opens with him about to jump off the building. 12 hours later, he comes in. I heard about the mass casualty event on the police scanner. Like, he goes home, he&#8217;s listening on his shortwave radio for the next time he&#8217;s going to get called in. Like, yeah, this is definitely the guy you want as a doctor.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>51:44&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">As long as he could treat me before his shift is over. Then, all right.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>51:49&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">All right. Well, at the very least, we both really enjoyed watching <em>The Pitt</em>, but moreover, we really enjoyed talking about <em>The Pitt</em>, which is why we have these two very long episodes about this show. We hope that our audience has caught some of our love for the show, our passion for <em>The Pitt</em>. And you have plenty of time. You’ve got maybe half a year to catch up on this thing, and then Dr Harmon and I will see you when it&#8217;s time to roll out <em>The Pitt</em> Season Two discussion on <strong>Apollo on Call.</strong>&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>52:22&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Do you have some kind of way for people to discuss back their insights or things that they&#8217;ve learned from listening to the podcast or watching the show?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>52:29&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, you can put comments on MedHum, feel free. You can send us little notes about our discussion if you want.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>52:43&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I&#8217;d love to hear what people thought of our take on the show and what their take on the show was.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>DAVID HSU </strong>52:49&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Until then, until the next time we discover some medical humanities, pop culture thing that we need, Dr Harmon, we will bid adios.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>STUART HARMAN </strong>52:59&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">See you in Season Two, folks.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"></p>
</details>



<figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
<iframe title="The Pitt | Official Trailer | Max" width="1310" height="737" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ufR_08V38sQ?start=3&#038;feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>
</div></figure>



<p class="has-small-font-size wp-block-paragraph"><br>Web image by John Johnson from HBO Pressroom</p>
]]></content:encoded>
					
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		<title>One Patient, Two Systems </title>
		<link>https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/one-patient-two-systems/</link>
					<comments>https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/one-patient-two-systems/#comments</comments>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Hsu]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Feb 2025 13:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Narrative]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[A Chinese City Doctor’s Notebook]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[bilingual]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[canada]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[cancer]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[chemotherapy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[China]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[chinese]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[CT scan]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[diagnosis]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[family support]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[healthcare]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[hong kong]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[hospitals]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[immigration]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[insurance]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[oncology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[patient care]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[referrals]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[surgery]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[taiwan]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[travel]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[treatment]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[wait times]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://medhum.org/?p=9541</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A Chinese-Canadian patient navigates the complexities of two healthcare systems, balancing speed, cultural familiarity, and medical standards between Canada and China.]]></description>
										<content:encoded><![CDATA[
<h4 class="wp-block-heading">A Chinese City Doctor’s Notebook–Chapter Two</h4>



<p class="has-palette-color-5-background-color has-background wp-block-paragraph" style="font-size:clamp(14px, 0.875rem + ((1vw - 3.2px) * 0.078), 15px);"><em>Mrs. Lin is a fifty-five-year-old woman who has lived alone in Canada for many years while her husband lives back in China. Her two sons are both working and out of the house. Last week, she discovered a new breast lump while showering. A few days later, she’s in my clinic to get the lump checked. As her family doctor, I order a mammogram and an ultrasound. When the results of these tests come back a few days later, the report indicates that the findings are suspicious for malignancy and a biopsy is necessary.</em>&nbsp;<br><br><em>Mrs. Lin returns to the clinic and I relay the information to her. I try not to mention the word “cancer” to her, but it hangs between us, powerful even if it remains unsaid. I urge her not to jump to worst case scenarios, but we both know that one way or the other, this is life altering news. I promise to order a referral to the breast diagnostic clinic at the community hospital nearby and that the breast centre will reach out to her in the next week or two.</em>&nbsp;<br><br><em>Later in the week, I receive a fax from the breast clinic. They’ve been trying to reach my patient by phone but with no success. Do we have another way of contacting her?</em>&nbsp;<br><br><em>I instruct my office staff to try to reach the patient. They call repeatedly for a few days. The breast clinic appointment is scuttled but I’m not actually worried. I’ve seen this pattern many times before. I am certain the patient has already flown the coop.</em>&nbsp;<br><br><em>A few days later, my hunch is proven right. My nurse manages to reach one of Mrs. Lin’s sons. His mother is safely back in China, seeking medical attention there. They’ll call us when she returns sometime next year.</em>&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">When my father boarded a plane in Taiwan in 1967 to come to Canada on a one-way ticket for graduate school, my grandmother saw him off at the airport. She gave him $1000 and said, “I’ll see you in about ten years.”&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">She wasn’t far off. In fact, he didn’t return to Taiwan until 1974, for his wedding.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">That was what being a Chinese-Canadian immigrant was like back in those days. A journey to the other side of the world was truly a journey into an unknown abyss. Letters marked “airmail” with the blue and red checkered envelope edges took weeks to circumnavigate the globe. If my father wanted to call his parents, he’d reserve the call for special occasions like Chinese New Year because long distance rates were exorbitant. And even then, he’d be careful to limit the call to one minute and fifty seconds because exceeding the two-minute mark meant paying unnecessary fees.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Immigrating was essentially a one-way trip. Immigrants like my father rarely considered the prospect of flying back home because it was something most of them simply couldn’t afford. There were only two acceptable occasions to fly home: your own wedding or a death in the family.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The journey for today’s Chinese-Canadian immigrants is different. Not only can they communicate easily with those back home using apps like WhatsApp, WeChat and Line on an hourly basis, but based on my observation of my Chinese Canadian immigrant patients, even those who struggle financially, seem to have a reserve fund that they can dip into and use to return to China on a moment’s notice. Home is never more than a one-day airplane flight away.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And people fly back for all manner of reasons now: family illnesses, Chinese New Year, summer vacations, and most definitely, for expediting medical investigations.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The fluidity with which patients move back and forth speaks to a difference in what motivates immigrants to come to Canada. When my parents’ generation left China or Taiwan or Hong Kong, often it was to trade a future bleak of possibilities for a possibly prosperous future. But for many of today’s Chinese immigrants, it’s a trade of one hopeful future, for possibly, a slightly better one, but with the option to go back if this future in the West doesn’t work out.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Health care has become part of this back-and-forth fluidity. It used to be that the health care trade off would have been clear&#8211;Canadian health care was more advanced than that in China in the sixties and seventies. But that’s not entirely true anymore, and today’s immigrants arrive with a great deal more reticence about our health care system.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Health care always presents unique challenges to an immigrant population. Illnesses imply a degree of immediacy and urgency. They play out on their own timetables &#8211; they don’t wait for people to become comfortable with the language or culture of a place before occurring.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So the new immigrant is forced to face the health challenges of regular life—acute illnesses, chronic diseases, bodily injuries, babies being born, and even the occasional life-threatening-situation without the social support structure that they would have had back home. All this is part of the bargain that the new immigrant strikes with their adopted country. And so they pray that nothing major will befall them, but when something invariably does, what do they do?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In the previous generations, immigrants here had little recourse but to seek out solutions in the Canadian health care system. Whether their English was up to snuff or not, they were forced to navigate the system here. Many Chinese immigrants like my parents flocked to Chinese-speaking doctors like me in the hope that at least less would be lost in translation if they found a Chinese person holding the stethoscope.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The modern immigrant though, has the luxury of straddling the line between the Canadian and Chinese health care systems, keeping one foot in China’s health care system and another foot in Canada’s.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Unhappy with the wait times for elective knee surgery in Ontario? No problem. A doctor in Taiwan or Hong Kong will have you on the table in the OR in a few weeks, not months.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">New discovery of lymphoma? No need to wait for your family doctor to refer you to an oncology clinic and for that clinic to send you for imaging before finally making a decision on treatment—a process that can easily span into months. If you fly back to China, you can walk into a specialty clinic the next day, see a doctor by lunch time and have imaging and an oncology plan done by the end of the week.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">When it comes to China, the western world has a tendency to see things in stark black and white terms: e.g., freedom is good and communism is bad. As a Chinese Canadian physician, I find that this type of thinking carries over to our view of the health care system. Medical students in Canada, are taught that the Canadian health care system is a virtuous, humane social experiment, one of the country’s proudest achievements. It’s drummed into us that it delivers world-class care to the majority of its people. And we’re proud to be trained in it. Sure, it has its problems, but nothing’s perfect.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">There is a hidden side to this curriculum though. If we’re world class here, what about health care systems in other places? What about Africa? What about South America? What about China?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Perhaps unintentionally, we’re taught to look down on the systems of other countries. We use words like ”developing“ and “evolving” to describe health care systems in these places. But in private, we often shake our heads in exasperation and use far worse language than that.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">These stereotypes were only reinforced when I started practicing medicine about fifteen years ago. The requests of my Chinese patients, often rooted in their own experiences with the health care systems they had left behind, drove me batty on a daily basis.&nbsp;</p>



<figure class="wp-block-pullquote"><blockquote><p>“In Hong Kong, doctors prescribe us antibiotics whenever we want.” <br>“In China, the doctor would have given us IV fluids for this.” <br>“In Taiwan, I can have an MRI for whatever body part I want.”</p></blockquote></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I’d try to explain to my patients that, “Yes, that might be the case there. But you don’t really need any of those things.” But it’s hard to convince someone that everything they’ve accepted as truth may not be correct.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The worse complaint was always about the wait times. This was one that I could not refute. It’s well-known that wait times for medical procedures in Canada are criminally lengthy. But whereas my Canadian patients had nowhere else to go and would just vent to me about the breaking down of our country’s beloved health care system, or try to drive a few hours to Buffalo to get an MRI, my Chinese patients had the luxury of options. They could hop on a plane, land in China or Hong Kong or Taiwan by the end of the week and get whatever they wanted within days, not weeks or months.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I should point out that the feedback from patients about the Canadian health care system wasn’t always negative when compared to back home. I learned that the fifteen to twenty minutes I allocated to speak to each patient was approximately twelve to eighteen minutes more than they got in the typical Chinese hospital.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Still, there were many frustrations that I was unprepared for. Patients would return to my clinic armed with reams of paperwork (all in Chinese), documenting checkups and physical exams that they had done overseas: lab tests and CT scans that had no indication for being ordered, medications that they had been prescribed that were not really indicated.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">If modern medicine in the West suffers from an over-reliance on medical imaging and pharmaceuticals at the expense of a more prudent and holistic approach to care, then modern Chinese medicine has become Western medicine’s adopted twin, with all the same problems we have, except with even less sense of restraint and caution.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Mr. Zhang is a middle aged, Chinese man with diabetes. In China, people routinely retire in their early fifties and one of the perks of retirement is long term health insurance, so even though Mr. Zhang has lived in Canada for almost fifteen years, he still can access Chinese health care whenever he is back home.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Mr. Zhang isn’t alone in returning home to seek health care. Even those without health insurance often choose to pay out of pocket to access health care in China on a regular basis because the costs aren’t prohibitive&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Because Mr. Zhang travels back and forth between China and Canada on a regular basis (after all winters in Canada are cold), he needs doctors on both sides of the world to help him manage his long-term diabetes. What he’s discovered is that the quality of care in both countries is, for him at least, comparable. The general procedures for diabetes, routine blood testing, and medication adjustments, are similar in both places. But there are some noticeable differences.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">He informs me that in China, the health care system is heavily incentivized by the profit motive. Hospitals make more money if they achieve certain revenue quotas, and this is passed on to the doctors, who in turn pass this mindset down to the patients.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">At the same time, it’s well known to him and all his friends, that in Canada, with a public health care system, cost-cutting is much more of an issue.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The doctor as gatekeepers of the health care system is sometimes a difficult concept for patients to understand. Doctors in China are not really gatekeepers of the system the way they are in Canada, where doctors spend a great deal of time being instructed on not over-ordering tests. Not all medical investigations are necessary. Extra tests beget extra costs and may engender unnecessary anxiety and have deleterious consequences for the patient-just think about the patient who worries about a lung nodule that will never cause them problems once it’s been spotted on an unnecessary chest X-ray. These are hard lessons that even medical practitioners in the West struggle with at times. For my patients from China, this concept is irrelevant. In a privatized system where patients can pay for what they want, getting an unnecessary MRI is no different than spending money on a fancier car or an extra helping of dessert: nobody really needs it, but if they can afford it, then why not?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So if I try to explain to my patients why I don’t think they need that MRI they really want, they think I am just trying to save the government of Canada money. If I am really hard-nosed about it, they just might turn around, get on a plane and have the test done in Shanghai or Taipei by the end of the week.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In China, if I want an MRI and can afford to pay for one, then who is anyone to stop me from getting what I want? If a cardiologist makes more money for pushing a certain type of stent at a patient, who is going to stop them from recommending it to patients who might do just as well with a less aggressive intervention?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">To be sure, these are problems that exist in many parts of the world, even here. But reviewing the stacks of lab results and CT scans that my patients lug back to Canada from overseas, I can’t help but feel that my patients have stumbled upon the Wild, Wild, West of health care-except it’s in the Far East.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">There is of course a downside when patients straddle two countries for their healthcare. Countless times, I’ve had patients return from overseas after having had a major health calamity. Maybe they had breast cancer diagnosed in China, or a screw placed in their hip after a fall, but now that they’ve returned to Canada, no specialist office will see them.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Dutifully, the patient brings copies of their hospital notes from China, copies of their CT scans and MRIs, but nobody here is willing to read them because nobody here trusts what the report says. If the documents are written in Chinese, Canadian doctors usually can’t read it. Even if they could and wanted to trust it, can they really do so medico-legally? And so it’s the patient that gets left in the lurch.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In the end, armed with a Chinese-Canadian dictionary in my early years in practise, or more recently Google translate, I’ve learned to muddle through. With my admin staff translating the documents for me, I can usually piece together what procedure a patient has had done overseas. Then we try to match them with the appropriate follow up here, often repeating the testing and imaging so that patients can access care here.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But it’s getting better. In my early years, I couldn’t find any oncology clinics willing to follow my patients who had started their chemotherapy overseas. Many of these patients flew all the way here to use their hard-won Ontario health care card, only to have to fly back home shortly thereafter when they realized they weren’t going to receive timely care in Canada. These days, I’ve seen more care handoffs take place here smoothly. Truly, the health care world is becoming a little friendlier to immigrants.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It used to drive me crazy when my patients sought out health care overseas. In medical school, we’re taught a very idealized version of medical care, something akin to the traditional country doctor’s life straight out of the 19th century. A patient feels unwell. They seek out a local physician. The physician solves the problem or directs them to someone else who can. The problem is solved, and life goes on.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But in real life, I saw that patients didn’t always stay in one place. Sometimes they asked me for help first. Then they’d go overseas. At other times, they came back from Asia and needed my help deciphering what had happened to them there. And back and forth they went.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Sometimes I’d get exasperated that they were receiving substandard care overseas. At other times, I’d gain an appreciation that they really could get better, faster treatment for certain things in China that in Canada would have taken ages. In time, I developed a grudging respect for health care in China.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">As I worked with patients who were navigating these two systems simultaneously, I felt myself drawn into a curious, political dilemma. Which health care system is better?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Sometimes patients would pull me aside and ask me what they should do, fly back to China and seek urgent care or wait a bit longer to see their specialist here in Canada?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The issues were always some variation of the same theme, a weighing of trade-offs: comfort with the language, wait times, medical expertise, as well as the family support system, all bundled into one massive equation that boiled down to a simple binary question: China or Canada?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I’ve found my own stance on the issue change over time. When I first graduated from medical school, armed with all my pro-Western biases, the answer was almost certainly Canada.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But in recent years, I’ve watched medicine advance in China from afar, through what my patients tell me, and through the medical records and histories that they bring back to me. Perhaps there’s still a lot of overkill in investigations on the other side of the ocean, but often the quality of medicine isn’t that different from what it is here. And it’s almost certainly faster. And if you can pay for quicker care, why not? Moreover, many of these Chinese immigrants have family support networks back home that simply don’t exist here. For them to return home for their care simply makes rational sense. Nothing reminds someone of how foreign they are as being in a cold, sterile hospital environment where nobody speaks your language.&nbsp;</p>



<p class="has-palette-color-5-background-color has-background wp-block-paragraph" style="font-size:clamp(14px, 0.875rem + ((1vw - 3.2px) * 0.078), 15px);"><em>More than a year after she departed, Mrs. Lin returns to my clinic. Following a lumpectomy and ten rounds of chemotherapy, the doctors in China have instructed her to remain on estrogen receptor therapy for the next five years.</em>&nbsp;<br><br><em>Why did she return to China for medical care? Despite living in Canada for more than a decade and having a passable command of the English language, she still felt that for something as serious as this, she wanted to be someplace she could speak her native tongue. Plus, she would have family members there to support her. Left unsaid is that the entire medical procedure in China took days to arrange not weeks as it would have here.</em>&nbsp;<br><br><em>I refer her to a medical oncologist, who reports back to me that she is overall, in agreement with the patient’s treatment plan. She replaces the patient’s estrogen treatment with an alternative agent that is available in Canada.</em>&nbsp;</p>



<p class="has-small-font-size wp-block-paragraph">Web photo by&nbsp;<a href="https://unsplash.com/@zacong?utm_content=creditCopyText&amp;utm_medium=referral&amp;utm_source=unsplash">Zac Ong</a>&nbsp; </p>



<h4 class="wp-block-heading"><br>Additional Chapters from A Chinese City Doctor’s Notebook</h4>


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1362</span></div></div></div></div><div class="ultp-block-item ultp-block-media post-id-11248"><div class="ultp-block-content-wrap"><div class="ultp-block-image ultp-block-image-zoomIn"><a href="https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/the-happiest-couple/" ><img decoding="async"  loading="lazy" alt="The Happiest Couple"  src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/BrowserPreview_tmp-11-150x150.jpg" /></a></div><div class="ultp-block-content"><h3 class="ultp-block-title "><a href="https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/the-happiest-couple/" >The Happiest Couple</a></h3><div class="ultp-block-meta ultp-block-meta-emptyspace ultp-block-meta-style3"><span class="ultp-block-date ultp-block-meta-element"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" fill="none" viewBox="0 0 24 24">
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1724</span></div></div></div></div><div class="ultp-block-item ultp-block-media post-id-9541"><div class="ultp-block-content-wrap"><div class="ultp-block-image ultp-block-image-zoomIn"><a href="https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/one-patient-two-systems/" ><img decoding="async"  loading="lazy" alt="One Patient, Two Systems "  src="https://medhum.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/zac-ong-HzD40FXD1hY-unsplash-e1740113067137-1-150x150.jpg" /></a></div><div class="ultp-block-content"><h3 class="ultp-block-title "><a href="https://medhum.org/article/narrative/dave_hsu/one-patient-two-systems/" >One Patient, Two Systems </a></h3><div class="ultp-block-meta ultp-block-meta-emptyspace ultp-block-meta-style3"><span class="ultp-block-date ultp-block-meta-element"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" fill="none" viewBox="0 0 24 24">
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		<title>What’s Negative about Negative Capability? </title>
		<link>https://medhum.org/article/reflection/jack_coulehan/whats-negative-about-negative-capability/</link>
					<comments>https://medhum.org/article/reflection/jack_coulehan/whats-negative-about-negative-capability/#respond</comments>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack Coulehan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Nov 2024 19:28:30 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Reflection]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Art]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[clinical intuition]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[creativity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[engagement]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[healing]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[literature]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mindfulness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[openness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[patient care]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[poetry]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[resilience]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Science]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[uncertainty]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[vulnerability]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[William Shakespeare]]></category>
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					<description><![CDATA[Negative Capability bridges science and art in medicine, fostering openness, reflection, resilience, and deeper patient connection.]]></description>
										<content:encoded><![CDATA[
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">On December 21, 1817, John Keats wrote to his brothers George and Tom about a literary discussion he had recently had with the critic Charles Dilke, after which “several things dove-tailed in my mind.”<sup>1</sup> Keats continued,&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“At once it struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement, especially in Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously — I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable searching after fact and reason.”<sup>1</sup>&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The young physician then went on to cite Samuel Taylor Coleridge as a poet whom he considered deficient in negative capability because he was “incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge.”<sup>1</sup> What exactly did Keats mean? That Coleridge was too curious or too intellectual to be a great poet? We’ll never know because Keats, who died of tuberculosis less than four years later, never referred to negative capability again, either in his letters or other writings.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">A single mention in a private letter is not much of a pedigree. Nonetheless, Keats’ casual turn of phrase has generated plenty of writings by others in the centuries that followed. Literary critics generally interpret negative capability to mean being open to the world without having preconceived theories, a willingness to suspend judgment, and/or the ability to function imaginatively in the face of incomplete knowledge (e.g. uncertainties, mysteries). In recent decades notable psychoanalysts and philosophers have championed the importance of negative capability in their own fields. In fact, with the enthusiasm of a dilettante who knows little about literary criticism, I’ve gone so far as to argue that negative capability is an important quality for clinicians to develop.<sup>2</sup><sup> </sup>&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Wait a second! There’s something wrong with this picture. Physicians not “searching after fact and reason”? Doctors “remaining content with half-knowledge”? How can negative capability be a positive quality in scientific medicine? It sounds negative for sure, but not very capable.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">What did John Keats have in mind when he invented the term? In 1816 he had successfully passed his examination for a medical license and joined the Worshipful Society of Apothecaries, yet had also become increasingly ambivalent about a career in medicine. By late 1817 he and his brothers had rented a house in Hampstead, where John devoted himself to writing poetry, as well as taking care of Tom, who was dying of tuberculosis. Keats had given up the idea of practicing medicine. Yet could medical training have had any influence on his concept of negative capability?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Medicine has a long tradition that attributes a special quality to the diagnostic and therapeutic thought processes of good clinicians, an attribute independent of intelligence, medical knowledge, or even logical deduction—with all due respect to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and his teacher, Dr. Joseph Bell, who served as the model for Sherlock Holmes. When I was a medical student, my teachers referred to this quality as clinical intuition or clinical judgment. Yet the word “intuition” was always suspect because it smacked of mysticism, and “judgment” was co-opted in the 1970s by clinical epidemiologists, like Alvan Feinstein, who characterized it in mathematical terms of probability and utility, which sounded good but didn’t capture the experiential quality of medical thinking.<sup>3</sup>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In an episode of “Star Trek,” when Spock questions Captain Kirk about an apparently foolhardy decision that has endangered the entire crew of the USS Enterprise, Kirk replies, “It’s not logical. It doesn’t make sense. It’s my gut feeling!” Kirk, as usual, had chosen the right course of action and by the end of the episode saves the day. However, even if clinical judgment can’t be reduced to an algorithm, surely it must have more going for it than gut feelings. I recently found an interesting, and I think plausible, definition in the nursing literature: “a judgment in which visual and verbal cues are so rapidly and subliminally observed that their contributions to the final decision are virtually forgotten.”<sup>4</sup>&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yet visual and verbal cues can’t stand alone. They require something to integrate them, a process, a creative spin. Some years ago Edward de Bono coined the term “lateral thinking” for an indirect approach to problem solving, involving ideas that might not be obtainable by using traditional step-by-step logic. (Parenthetically, I imagine that for de Bono the more traditional approach to problem solving must logically be entitled “medial thinking, i.e. closer to the center, whatever that means.) De Bono’s lateral thinking seems roughly equivalent to today’s favorite metaphor for creativity, “thinking outside the box.” Alternatively, those of us who slavishly adhere to reason are doomed to remain trapped inside the box, like Schrödinger’s cat, neither dead nor alive.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Whatever you call it, I find something attractive about attributing a special openness and curiosity to the art of medicine, an openness that permits a greater variety of information to <em>enter</em> the box, rather than kicking the logical brain out of it. In his famous turn of phrase, Keats obviously chose to give “negative” a beneficial meaning. Negative in this context implies passivity, receptivity, and humility , yet it seems these qualities are precisely what made the difference between a competent poet like Coleridge and a truly creative one. Does this sense of negativity have a place in the art of medicine? Does it tell us anything about the difference between merely competent and master clinicians?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">One aspect of the comparison fails immediately. Unlike Keats, whose primary goal was beauty, physicians are heavily invested in truth. So “searching after fact and reason” is the name of the game in medicine, not the road to mediocrity. But other aspects of negative capability seem more promising. What if you view negative capability as intellectual and emotional openness, a willingness to be reflective and mindful about one’s practice? While “reaching after fact and reason” may be a defining feature of scientific medicine, clinicians confront a human reality that remains opaque, even after machines and lab tests have yielded their results. If we as clinicians predicate our care entirely on “irritable reaching,” or abandon patients because of “uncertainties, mysteries, doubts,” we lose much of our effectiveness as healers.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<figure class="wp-block-pullquote has-palette-color-5-background-color has-background"><blockquote><p>I like to think of negative capability as the gateway to reflective practice. In self-awareness or reflective practice sessions, I often prescribe a judicious application of poetry, sometimes even asking students to write a poem about a clinical experience that is particularly meaningful or upsetting to them. </p></blockquote></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Of course, poetry is only one of many tools that can assist us in developing the habit of reflectiveness, but for me it offers a glimpse into the paradox of the art of medicine: the ability to function at the interface between detachment and engagement, steadiness and tenderness, resilience and vulnerability, science and art. In pursuing the steadiness and detachment required to master clinical practice, it is tempting to neglect the more difficult project of nourishing engagement and tenderness in our relationships with patients—and with ourselves. In an address to medical students at McGill University, William Osler claimed,&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“Nothing will sustain you more potently in your humdrum routine… than the power to recognize the true poetry of life—the poetry of the commonplace, of the ordinary man, of the plain, toil-worn woman, with their loves and their joys, their sorrows and their griefs.”<sup>5</sup>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">That “power to recognize the true poetry of life” is a function of negative capability. Notice that Osler speaks of sustaining the physician through the “humdrum routine” of professional life, not specifically of patient benefit. Could it be that physicians who develop negative capability are happier, more productive, less likely to burn-out?&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I’ll end with an example close to home. In my narrative medicine elective at Stony Brook, I used to ask students to keep a clinical journal. In one of her final entries, one fourth year student, reflecting on her experience in medical school, wrote, “The practice of medicine is simply poetry in motion. The art of medicine is the validation of everything that makes the human experience. I learned more about myself than I ever imagined….”&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Simply poetry in motion.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I wonder what John Keats, who rejected medicine for poetry, would have to say about that?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>References</strong></p>



<ol start="1" class="wp-block-list">
<li>Keats J. <em>The Complete Poetical Works and Letters of John Keats, Cambridge Edition</em>. Houghton, Mifflin and Company, 1899, p. 277.&nbsp;</li>



<li>Coulehan J, Clary P. Healing the healer: Poetry in Palliative Care, <em>J Palliative Medicine</em>, 2005; 8: 382-389.&nbsp;</li>



<li>Feinstein A. <em>Clinical Judgment</em>. Baltimore, Williams &amp; Wilkins, 1967.&nbsp;</li>



<li>Cioffi J. Heuristics, servants to intuition, in clinical decision-making. <em>J Adv Nurs</em> 1997; 26: 203-8.&nbsp;</li>



<li>Osler W. The student life. In <em>Osler’s ‘A Way of Life’ &amp; Other Addresses With Commentary &amp; Annotations, </em>eds. S Hinohara and H Niki, Durham, Duke University Press, 2001, pp. 305-330.  <br></li>
</ol>



<p class="has-small-font-size wp-block-paragraph">Web image from <a href="https://keatslettersproject.com/2018/01/page/2/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Keats Letter Project</a>.</p>



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